Armed Militia Takes Over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge HQ

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
how do you know this? -cragar

Gee I don't know, Cragar, how do we know Survival will get to the third pitch and have the nuts to do the job?

.....

HFCS is completely correct.

That's right.

Why do I get the feeling a few here DO NOT KNOW HOW TO pause a youtube video and analyze the circumstances circa 17.5 to 19.0 sec in 100ms increments?

a f*#king clue about what that FBI agent was thinking... -eyehawk


eyehawk, here's a cam placement...



I don't think you have a fuking clue whether the cam's secure... a fuking clue whether the whole granite slab behind it will trundle or not.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:05pm PT
Whatever the officer intended, the larger point is that Finicum should've stopped at the road block: he didn't.

He should've stayed in the car: he didn't.

He should've kept his hands up: he didn't.

He shouldn't have put his hand in his pocket: he did.

He should be alive: he isn't.



HE SHOULD HAVE COMPLIED AT THE FIRST STOP!! He didn't.
jonnyrig

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
F*#k, if you f*#kers can't get a grip on what happened, is it any wonder what the supporters of the Bundy clan will think of it?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
I'm up to 13% confidence because of the hubris and Knowitall defensiveness of the opposition and particularly the reasoned opinions of a few others.

What was that goo on the plate? There ain't enough coors light to make me eat that. For Preppers those campers are really really bad.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
Someone had mentioned mandatory minimum sentences earlier....The offense they're being charged with doesn't carry any minimum sentence it seems like (if I have recent info).
"conspiracy to impede officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation or threats"

I say they'll probably cut a deal and let them walk...unless these have prior felonies.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:48pm PT

Jan 29, 2016 - 02:42pm PT
Lorenzo,

Although I'd love to attend, I can't make it to the aforementioned shindig.

I will be fully busy picking my nuts for the third pitch, from the ground, for the foreseeable future....

Ok, but if you change your mind, remember- no long guns or open carry. Make sure you have your concealed carry for Oregon in order, and a number 2 friend.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
I say they'll probably cut a deal and let them walk...unless these have prior felonies.

Alternatively, once everyone is in custody they'll add the same terrorism statute that the Hammonds are in for, or at least use the possibility as part of the plea bargain.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
Sure, they might be waiting for the rest to get out of Malheur, and not adding charges not to scare the rest too much.
But something tells me they're unlikely to pile charges....just the whole prior handling of that clan.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
The reality is that the statute is actually a year longer than terrorism statutes ( 6 yrs vs 5 years) unless the use of a firearm is proved.

With good behavior, it's the same time served.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
So does it have any mandatory minimum right now?
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
I'm pretty sure the next thing on Bundy ranch facebook page will be a claim that a cop jumped before their truck on purpose, in hopes to get murder charges on poor Ammon...

Well, remember that girl who fell asleep at the steering wheel and plowed into several people on the highway side? She got 8 years for each, amounting to 48 years total. She wasn't even evading police, just driving. If you're evading and they got probable cause on you....and you hit someone....Bundy had a lucky star over him that day.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
Wow. is it still going on?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:15pm PT
eyehawk, here's a cam placement...

I don't think you have a fuking clue whether the cam's secure... a fuking clue whether the whole granite slab behind it will trundle or not.

Well that doesn't look too bad. I would definitely trust your life with it...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
Katz-

To answer your question, it depends on how many counts and whether the other charges are felonies or misdemeanors. The sentencing guidelines on the Cornell Law page always talk about associated charges, so there will surely be some.what they are sitting in jail for is a charge of conspiracy to commit to some other offense. The indictment document lists multiple acts for each defendant.
( 1 yr for a misdemeanor, Five year max for a felony Charge attached)

Historical and Revision Notes
Based on title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed., §§ 88, 294 (Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, § 37, 35 Stat. 1096; Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, § 178a, as added Sept. 27, 1944, ch. 425, 58 Stat. 752).

This section consolidates said sections 88 and 294 of title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed.

To reflect the construction placed upon said section 88 by the courts the words “or any agency thereof” were inserted. (See

Haas v. Henkel
, 1909, 30 S. Ct. 249, 216 U. S. 462, 54 L. Ed. 569, 17 Ann. Cas. 1112, where court said: “The statute is broad enough in its terms to include any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing, or defeating the lawful functions of any department of government.” Also, see
United States v. Walter
, 1923, 44 S. Ct. 10, 263 U. S. 15, 68 L. Ed. 137, and definitions of department and agency in section 6 of this title.)
The punishment provision is completely rewritten to increase the penalty from 2 years to 5 years except where the object of the conspiracy is a misdemeanor. If the object is a misdemeanor, the maximum imprisonment for a conspiracy to commit that offense, under the revised section, cannot exceed 1 year.

The injustice of permitting a felony punishment on conviction for conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor is described by the late Hon. Grover M. Moscowitz, United States district judge for the eastern district of New York, in an address delivered March 14, 1944, before the section on Federal Practice of the New York Bar Association, reported in 3 Federal Rules Decisions, pages 380–392.

Hon. John Paul, United States district judge for the western district of Virginia, in a letter addressed to Congressman Eugene J. Keogh dated January 27, 1944, stresses the inadequacy of the 2-year sentence prescribed by existing law in cases where the object of the conspiracy is the commission of a very serious offense.

The punishment provision of said section 294 of title 18 was considered for inclusion in this revised section. It provided the same penalties for conspiracy to violate the provisions of certain counterfeiting laws, as are applicable in the case of conviction for the specific violations. Such a punishment would seem as desirable for all conspiracies as for such offenses as counterfeiting and transporting stolen property in interstate commerce.

A multiplicity of unnecessary enactments inevitably leads to confusion and disregard of law. (See reviser’s note under section 493 of this title.)

Since consolidation was highly desirable and because of the strong objections of prosecutors to the general application of the punishment provision of said section 294, the revised section represents the best compromise that could be devised between sharply conflicting views.

A number of special conspiracy provisions, relating to specific offenses, which were contained in various sections incorporated in this title, were omitted because adequately covered by this section. A few exceptions were made, (1) where the conspiracy would constitute the only offense, or (2) where the punishment provided in this section would not be commensurate with the gravity of the offense. Special conspiracy provisions were retained in sections 241, 286, 372, 757, 794, 956, 1201, 2271, 2384 and 2388 of this title. Special conspiracy provisions were added to sections 2153 and 2154 of this title.

Amendments
1994—Pub. L. 103–322 substituted “fined under this title” for “fined not more than $10,000”.

kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
Isn't this maximum sentence but not minimum?

If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107–273, div. B, title IV, § 4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)

It talks about levied fine being a lower end punishment, for what they got now.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
There is very little outside work done at the refuge during mid-winter. Most of the work would be ongoing maintenance of the road systems,buildings, and water diversion dams and fish ladders. The Biologist is usually working on the data collected over the summer.

What did you go and do that for? I was enjoying watching these clowns get all lathered up about the lack of carp depredation work being done on a lake that has about 4" of ice on it. Ha.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:27pm PT

Fortunately, all you many Bundy lovers now have a place you can go to help out with Ammon Bundys bail money.

http://www.fundedjustice.com/en/projects/28054-Ammon-Bundy---Legal-Defense-Fund

Have at it! WOOT! (sorry, couldn't resist a gratuitous Woot there. Too bad no one has a "Get out of Jail free" card they can loan out here. But that's OK, roll that money right in there Bubbas! Even a single dollar will help.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
Yes, but you aren't getting that it a placeholder for other charges at this point. They each have officially been charged with only one count of conspiracy. Dozens of acts are listed in the charging document, and each could eventually be its own charge.


The current indictment is to hold them. The associated charge has to be a felony or they would be on the street.


It's not what you will see at trial.

As an aside, I was having pizza when the caravan went from jail to the courthouse. Back roads- mounted police and Motorcycle cops blocking intersections. Sort of like when a republican president visits town.
kattz

climber
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
"The current indictment is to hold them.

It's not what you will see at trial."

Yes. What I mean is that I expect them to bargain penalty for current charge down instead of adding anything, considering no action in his father's case, and overall kid gloves so far.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
Yes. What I mean is that I expect them to bargain penalty for current charge down instead of adding anything, considering no action in his father's case, and overall kid gloves so far.

They could bargain anywhere on the map. It could be they will show them 50 counts and give them the option of pleading guilty to lesser charges. This indictment isn't the maximum possible. It's as easily the minimum.

I think they found the kid gloves was a bad choice, given what has happened since.
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