The Gun debate sandbox

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fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Jan 12, 2013 - 07:20pm PT

Yes, but there is a very strong correlation between gun-laws and homicide rate across countries.

Gun regulations are effective at the national level. The evidence is overwhelming.

No they're not Dave... You're confusing correlation with causation. Which is pretty much all these debates crumble into on both sides. Surely you could consider there are plenty of other socioeconomic variables at play across countries. Hell, just across states in this country you run into the same thing.

The evidence is overwhelming because that's what you want to believe.

tooth

Trad climber

B.C.

Jan 12, 2013 - 07:23pm PT

Mechrist,

The video just proves that the violence is higher in cities, and when guns are involved - violence is more effective at turning to completion - dead effective.

So the gun laws can make murders attempted murders - but not reduce the rage causing the violence in the first place, right?

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Jan 12, 2013 - 07:34pm PT

So the gun laws can make murders attempted murders - but not reduce the rage causing the violence in the first place, right?

Yep. Since we clearly can't pass legislation that prevents rage causing violence, why not pass legislation that at least prevents it ending in murder?

tooth

Trad climber

B.C.

Jan 12, 2013 - 07:34pm PT

So I think we can agree that

Larger population centers = more violence per 100k population.

More guns = more violence turns into deaths

Gun laws correlate to more/less violence in states such as Alaska, not in states such as kansas.

If we took away the guns there would still be violent acts, but not as many with the victim ending up dead.

Some people would then go after blunt objects, then ban knives or whatever else became the next issue, not statistically next in line, but the next sensationalized issue to ban. EDIT : Since,

Since we clearly can't pass legislation that prevents rage causing violence, why not pass legislation that at least prevents it ending in murder?

Soon everyone lives in a padded room - you know, just in case.

All the while ignoring the fact that you could be addressing the cause of the demons causing people to commit violent crime (whether it resulted in death or whether or not a gun was used) in the first place.

Seems like the smart way to go about things since passing legislation banning things is the only way to go about things.

tooth

Trad climber

B.C.

Jan 12, 2013 - 07:36pm PT

I am well aware that ours is the only country where many folks actually believe it is possible match the firepower of the military with the contents of their personal gun safe.

I know of a couple others. Oh, and it happened.

mechrist

Gym climber

South of Heaven

Jan 12, 2013 - 07:48pm PT

tooth, you had me initially, then you started sliding down that irrational slippery slope. Step away from the edge dude.

Over 3x the number of murders... and 1/3 the violent crime rate... this has NOTHING to do with banning hammers, knives and the like you moron. Christ, what is wrong with you people? Seriously?

You only go "so far" with yur bans cuz it may affect you to go further?

It won't adversely affect me if you want to take the bans further. I simply think banning assault rifles is logical since there is no reason anyone NEEDS one and they are devastating when they fall into the wrong hands. Oh wait, you don't understand what logical means... to you it is all just an out of control slippery slope to Mexican drug cartels and an Obama dictatorship.

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jan 12, 2013 - 08:51pm PT

am well aware that ours is the only country where many folks actually believe it is possible match the firepower of the military with the contents of their personal gun safe.

I know of a couple others. Oh, and it happened.

tooth, how did these others countries you speak of compare militarily to the present day United States?

did they have Drones, F-22s, Apache Helos, US Marines, like we do now?

You are not seriously making a comparison between those countries and us now?

I mean, that WAS a tongue in cheek kind of joking comment, wasn't it?

Captain...or Skully

climber

Jan 12, 2013 - 09:28pm PT

Afghanistan.

Stans are bad.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Jan 12, 2013 - 09:55pm PT

The logic of sheep is what we have here. Pathetic to see and hear.

Of course enough wolves could devour the whole flock.

The point is there are many more sheep than wolves in this pasture.

If even a small percentage of those soft wooly critters can eat wolves, the wolves think twice. Wolves aren't used to being eaten by sheep, even in small numbers. Perhaps they change their diet to squirrels and cats.

It's a deterrent, perhaps a clause added by a once proud people that refused to be subjects. The tools aren't as important as the will. It would seem over the past 30 years, the majority of our nation is more than happy to be subjects. Rather than take care of ourselves, our families, and our communities, the majority look to the King for security and bread.

Interesting times.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

mammoth lakes ca

Jan 12, 2013 - 10:27pm PT

The NRA gun hysteria is merely another smoke-screen diversion to keep the wanna-be macho gun owners / right wing tea-bagger kooks playing with their genitalia while their masters , the republic party , screw em in the ass by lowering the richest 2% earners taxes and and cutting back on social security and other paid into social safety net systems...Keep chasing your tails you ignorant Jackasses and keep focused on gun rights while the shifty republicans steal your retirement and any other rights handed to you by the democratic voters....Heee Haww...

Crimpergirl

Sport climber

Boulder, Colorado!

Jan 12, 2013 - 10:48pm PT

From the FBI, you can see the relationship in city/county size and murder rates isn't totally straightforward: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_16_rate_number_of_crimes_per_100000_inhabitants_by_population_group_2011.xls

Fatal: Metro counties 3.3 per 100,000
Non-Metro counties 3.2 per 100,000.

And for places with 500,000+, the rates move around a bit. Some larger places have higher murder rates. Others don't. Of course these numbers do not control for income, education and other things which matter.

For non-fatal violence - see table 6. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf. I would not use FBI for non-fatal as it only has crime reported to the police. The table here has crime reported and not reported to the police. The difference in total violence and serious violence is simple assault.

In some cases, urban has higher rates. In some rural has higher than suburban. It seems to depend on the type of crime to me. And it depends on the way areas are categorized.

crankster

Trad climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Jan 12, 2013 - 10:53pm PT

Rottingjohnny hits a home run!

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jan 12, 2013 - 10:54pm PT

The first time I heard that story of "fear's" about the wolf and the sheep was in my Concealed Carry License class.

Yes, our intrepid instructor liked to see himself as the sheep dog, protecting the sheep from the marauding wolf lurking in the shadows.

The picture he was really painting was that HE was the armed protector, protecting the passive civilian population from all the bad guys.

Basically, he really wanted all of us in the class to kiss his ass and adore him.

I remember standing up and telling him to shut his mouth and quit stroking himself, that the class was about concealed carry laws and not about how cool he thought HE was.

I see that same crap being talked about here on this thread, give me a break.

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Jan 12, 2013 - 11:04pm PT

Can you name a single conflict, since the turn of the the 20th century, where untrained civilians with small arms defeated the military?

Nicaragua...

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Jan 12, 2013 - 11:06pm PT

FS brand new Brownells mill spec AR15 30rnd mag. Green follower Mint in the origional plastic. $500.00 will not ship to CA MA NY CT NJ Etc.
PM me ;)

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jan 12, 2013 - 11:09pm PT

cool!

we can sell gun stuff on supertopo now?

thanks!

i got all kinds of mags, lasers, shotguns, I would like to sell

PM me if interested!

tooth

Trad climber

B.C.

Jan 12, 2013 - 11:23pm PT

Nicaragua isn't a good example because both sides didn't start with the guns that they fought it out with. Other 'interested parties' chipped in for the side they were rooting for and many of the weapons were from out of state. When I was working down there I was staying with some guys involved in the conflict and they were telling me what it was like. Same with Afghanistan - once the fighting got started weapons were imported. Syria is another example. Iran has been helping them out, this is why the current regime hasn't already put down the uprising.

Nobody has an example of a civil war where nobody else got involved in the mess?