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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:12am PT
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I have never seen Doug Robinson use chalk.
Also, about half of that article was about all of the other routes on Half Dome.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:42am PT
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the worst scrutiny for the man of compromised values occurs behind his eyelids as he tries to find peaceful rest.
i speak from empathy, as i
utilize forest products to shape the heart of the earth into man's structures. (ie build wood formwork to mold concrete (limestone) into buildings).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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I have to disagree with Karl (big surprise) about Geek Tower, I was just up there yesterday doing the approach with spyork in the weather. That area has 3 or 4 lines that go to the top (LA Chimney, LA Direct, Yosemite Point Buttress,...) and the traffic is very light on any of them. The "problem" is not that Freestone and Geek Tower, Right end at the top of the "tower," but that it takes effort to get to them. With so much high quality climbing within 15 minutes of the parked car, distant cliffs are essentially abandoned to people who have the luxury of spending an hour or more on approach.
There are exceptions, of course, Snake Dike being one, but it is the one way up Half Dome that nearly every climber could say "I've climbed Half Dome, well, not up that face" when asked the inevitable question.
Perhaps my following comments have been expressed above someplace, I ran out of steam while attempting to read carefully through the above posts, but we all do make choices when putting up first ascents anywhere that we do them... and it balances the extreme of "adventure" between venturing without any preparation vs. having that venture totally planned. The antonyms of "adventure" are words like: avoidance, passiveness, inactivity,... i.e. sitting on your ass at home.
Why prepare? When we attempt an FA, we often have to plan on putting in protection which is "permanent" e.g. bolts. We might also alter the environment by "gardening" the climb. If we did this without preparation then the cliffs would be littered with byproduct of our adventure seeking, that is, you start out on something that can't be done at some level of style, or with finite effort.
Preparing for a climb doesn't drain the adventure from it, scoping big wall routes has been done from the beginning, photographing the walls, or looking at photographs to try to divine a route, identifying features, etc. No one wants to go up a line and not succeed, especially altering the line.
Climbers can choose to go without a bolt kit, which commits them to a particular style. Eric and I didn't take one on the retro-FA of A Walk In The Park because we sought a particular climb, an old style natural passage. It's not a classic in the "Meyers Yellow Guide" definition, but it was an adventure. We didn't leave much of a indication of our passage.
Other times, we have ventured out and put a bolt in where perhaps we shouldn't have, but that can happen. Retreating and trying another line is classic and often results in the "off route bolt" designation on the topos, we've all seen it. Our style is to try to minimize this sort of thing by planning the routes. We could also use a relatively modern innovation of removable anchors, which I'm coming to believe is the correct manner of bolting, allowing errant lines to be removed, and classic lines to be re-equipped easily.
I think how these climbs are put in are largely a personal choice, but one that effects the entire community. These debates are worth having especially if they are conducted in a constructive spirit, the WOS debate has long since passed the stage where it can be discussed with any good coming from it, a caution is not to let this debate go the same way. Passion is good... but we also aren't going to agree in the end.
Unfortunately, none of the principals of the FA have posted. It would be a more interesting discussion with their participation. I'd like to know what their point of view is on this, what was their vision. It is an important component of this debate.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Having followed this thread for the most part from the start. I have determined that the best quote comes from Karl....
"This seems like a bunch of pedophiles complaining about the evils of gay marriage. We accept our own ethical weaknesses because they are shared and attack the visionaries because their ethical weakness is ahead of it's time. Climbing has always been that way for sometimes better and sometimes worse."
That made me laugh out loud, carry on.
Prod.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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Prod,
I was going to bring up the awesomeness of that quote! Dang it.
Bumper sticker anyone?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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Hmmm...I liked the part about "walking past the great stone", and "rappelling is going down, climbing is going up".
"Southern Belle had a first "ascent"" Yeah, aid climbs have done some damage, no doubt about it. That's what this is it seems to me, an aid climb which can now be done as a free climb.
BITD any time you hung on gear, it was aid. Placing bolts on rappel is aid.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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The climb is what it is, not what you call it.
Or to paraphrase:
The climb speaks.
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Double D
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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le_bruce, nice photos! Taken from a slightly illegal flight pattern???
Thanks for posting.
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John Moosie
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
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This quote of Karl's got me too.
"Climbers are a lot like humans"
So climbers aren't human, but a lot like them? hahahaha....
True Dat.
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Gobie
Trad climber
Northern, Ca.
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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Yeah...constructive scarring. Now we are talking. I cant climb 5.13, but can aid like a mad man. If a bunch of us aid the lower section with angles eventually it will turn into a classic like serenity. If thats to scary then we can just aid it on top rope until the rock submits.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
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"This quote of Karl's got me too.
"Climbers are a lot like humans"
So climbers aren't human, but a lot like them? hahahaha....
True Dat. "
Have you heard the noises made while climbing?
It's either non-human or pubic audio sex
;-)
Karl
More seriously, some like to judge things by their own standards which complement their own history, background and strengths but it's true
The climb is simply what it is.
Seems like one thing to judge the results and how they impact the stone and future climbers and another to judge "Did they have enough adventure and could they have forgone the climb so somebody else could have had greater adventure?
It's like a lot of our human situation. Perhaps people should marry when both are virgins, stay together for a lifetime, and live happily every after.
What Life is, is completely different. Different situations, changing standards, perspectives, and values breed different results. Something is lost, something is gained.
To each their own.
As Ed Says, these climbs are restricted somewhat by the effort required to approach and establish them. There are huge faces with few routes up the canyon from Watkins. Have at em
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Survial wrote: BITD any time you hung on gear, it was aid. Placing bolts on rappel is aid.
So is placing them on hooks...what your point? This thread is f*#king hilarious.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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Bob wrote
"Survial wrote: BITD any time you hung on gear, it was aid. Placing bolts on rappel is aid.
So is placing them on hooks...what your point? This thread is f*#king hilarious."
Leave Bachar alone Bob. Just cause he aided his loosely bolted sport climb doesn't mean it wasn't proud.
;-)
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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Hahaha that's pretty funny bob d'
On another note, not just a question only to you Bob.
Has the evolution of rock climbing gone to rap bolting because we've lost sight of the true summit?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:34pm PT
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Bob, I agree, placing bolts from hooks is aid too. I didn't say it wasn't.
We all defend our own style, right on. As long as everybody is cool with subsequent ascents using aid, I guess it's all good.
I'm sure they won't mind if I drop a 1500 foot toprope down it, or whatever length it takes to get a rope to the bottom...
Edit: I've got no problem with aid climbing. I lIKE aid climbing. At times though, there has been a lot of smoke blown about "free" routes, that haven't been exactly free. I don't have the FA record that many many on this site have, but I have done a few bold things on sight with no rap, no bolts, no hooks, so I like to think of that as high on the style chart. That being said, this route wouldn't have gone that way. And as I said earlier, this route is out of my league anyway, so maybe I'd best pipe down and read....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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Werner wrote: Hahaha that's pretty funny bob d'
On another note, not just a question only to you Bob.
Has the evolution of rock climbing gone to rap bolting because we've lost sight of the true summit?
Moe than likely as very few routes go to summits.
The sport has evolve and change is good. I wasn't slacking on Bachar as I have respect for his efforts, always have...he did the best he could at the time and that is more than good enough for me.
It you take Surival comment as face value....old routes in Valley, Gunks and Boulder area have never been free climbed because gear use was placed with aid.
Not one person has commented on the quality of the route...I would almost be bet that it is a great route in a beautiful setting with good protection...but not a bolt ladder. Seth and Doug made some hard decisions fully knowing that the climb would stir this type of debate.
I bolted climbs back in the 70's and early 80's on lead into the 5.12 range and most have not been repeated...I wouldn't even go back and do them ...the bolts are old, somewhat runout and maybe not even all the good. Doing a FA is somewhat self-serving and personal...doing a first ascent that is climbed a lot is a community contribution.
I been around this game (climbing) way too long to past judgment on people I don't even know on the style of a climb they did. I much rather judge them on what kind human they are...a good friend, father, son, wife, etc... and what they do for the community.
We only get one ride at this rodeo (life) and I not going to fall off because of some bolts on a wall.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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Thanks Doug and Sean for generating some controversy. This site has been boring as sh#t lately.
Lot's of good comments on this thread.
You often hear "it's not about getting to the top, but how you do it", but how come we don't hear glorious stories about the first tries to send the face half dome of that didn't succeed? It's usually how you do it AND getting to the top that counts. An aid pin on Higher Cathedral Spire, and aid bolt on Lost Arrow, a bolt ladder on RNWFHD. How far are we willing to deviate from perfection for completion. We ALL compromise.
Leaving a climb for future climbers is a slippery slope, someday someone could free solo most any free line (and many that are thought only to be possible with aid) so then no climbs should go in with bolts, period.
The funny thing is the style of the FA can have ethical ramifications, but if the FA party doesn't publicize how they did it then there is often nothing to discuss but the merits of the resulting climb itself. Once someone writes up how they did the FA they are opening themselves up to scrutiny and criticism, and maybe this war of words is just as interesting as the physical modifications of the Earth.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:02pm PT
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Didn't they fire Half Dome?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:07pm PT
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The Fet asks about why we don't hear more stories about failures.
Well, we do! Some of the best stories about climbing I have read in print are about climbers who got shut down, re-evaluated and came back to either succeed or get shut down again. It really is about the journey and not the destination. Especially if you can get your ego under control.
Bruce
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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Bruce wrote: The Fet asks about why we don't hear more stories about failures.
Well, we do! Some of the best stories about climbing I have read in print are about climbers who got shut down, re-evaluated and came back to either succeed or get shut down again. It really is about the journey and not the destination. Especially if you can get your ego under control.
Bruce
Bruce...first off...how are you?
Just because they took a different path on their journey than you would...you think it is wrong....who really can't control their ego?
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