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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner, the Walleye fishery collapsed too - way over-Fish'ed!
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Degaine
climber
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healyje wrote: "an ever greater percentage of the whole are risk-averse and expect risk to be manged for them."
I think those are two different issues. Certain days I'm pretty risk averse, so I'll sew it up just to be sure and for peace of mind. Of course I'm not asking anyone to manage that risk for me, but I sure as hell am not going to put my ass on the line because someone else thinks I should place 4 cams instead of 9 on a given pitch or crag route.
Asking someone else to manage the risk for you, that is "hey, how come the FAist did not put more bolts up there to make it safer?" is a separate issue.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Magical Mystery Tour 5.8 *** R - 1973 Tobin Sorenson & Mike Graham
Solitary Confinement 5.9 solo *** X - 1984 John Bachar (solo)
Straight Street 5.10a ** R/X - 1985 John Bachar & Ed Barry
Run for Cover 5.10b ** R/X - 1985 John Bachar & Tom Herbert
Pumpkin Eater 5.9 R - 1974 Dale Bard, Vern Clevenger & Bob Harrington
Walk for Life 5.9 solo X - 1985 Alan Nelson (solo)
Blue Moon 5.8 solo X- 1985 Alan Nelson (solo)
Silverado 5.6 solo X- 1985 Alan Nelson (solo)
The solo routes were put up on sight. There are no bolts on those climbs. The other are pretty standard Tuolumne Meadows routes, minimal bolts, ground up, stance bolted (I'm pretty sure, members of the FA teams will correct me).
The solo routes could be considered "best style," FAs as nothing was done to alter the rock at all. The leads were bold, and the routes still stand today for any climber who wishes to test themselves against them. The only difference from the FA is that the grade of difficulty is known, a considerable bit of knowledge.
Of the other climbs, Magical Mystery Tour is probably the most climbed, and it is pretty standard fare for the area. Some leaders unfamiliar with the local "style" will feel it too run out. But it has the character of most other area climbs.
These other routes are bolted, so a compromise of the "best style" in that they are protected by bolts instead of running it out between protection. There would be no possible belays for some of these routes, especially as you get up on Fairview from that side.
Expedient? yes, of course, but the routes are high quality. Climbers can test themselves with any of these climbs. My guess is that the solos do not see much traffic. Their existence as unbolted climbs has been the subject of STForum (see for instance this) and an apparent invitation from the FA soloist (Alan Nelson) to retro-bolt them... Alan has since died but that invitation is still out there. As far as I know, these routes remain unbolted.
Here climbs of very different styles coexist, the styles are a continuum, from bold on sight solos to relatively pedestrian "every-person" climbs.
The "ethics" of the FA parties was probably pretty close to being the same. No road to hell here, just a lot of fun.
Don't think there was much anguish about this.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Ed-
Don't forget the ultra classic "Blazing Buckets" 5.9+ on Reeds. Put up solo on the first ascent, perhaps in the same style as Magical Mystery Tour, from the sound of the name anyway.
The second ascent placed a bolt. I don't really have any issue with that, it's a really stupid route to solo--if you blow it, you'll bounce off a sloping rock on the ledge above the second pitch of Reeds, and go the distance.
I wonder if anyone has even done the third ascent?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Degaine, that is what I was talking about, that the large majority of today's climbers are entirely bolt dependent.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sorry, Jody, what exactly was the point you made clear? Trad is bad? Please clarify.
What day of the week is 6/2/08?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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My .02 again,sorry.
Wes,the"we need more routes"idea did not work.When we started bolting the crap out of everything,and making the game safe the numbers of "climbers" increased exponentially,and I don't see that changing.It made it worse,not better.
Ron,sorry if I have not answered your question.The side by side thing is thought provoking.I guess if climb a is a trad,ground up,climb rated 5.x,and someone took a few risks into the unknown,and establishes a good route,then someone rap bolts another just twenty five feet away,we traddies start to wonder if the bolt expectations will leak across.Until you make a sport route at cliff Z,there are no sport climbers there.Then you make one,and it takes just ten minutes to climb and we need a few more.And the next time you come back there are four sport routes because they go up so fast.And pretty soon some well meaning soul who cried that he could not afford a trad rack shows up with a Bosch and fixes that trad route,because hey,it's a sport cliff right?
This stuff is happening,and not just in a few places.
Just want to say that the GU thing,I know it's not a sport route,I'm sure it's a killer route.I don't particularly admire folks who climb 5.11 putting in 5.8 X routes,and unlike most folks,I do not consider free solo the ultimate expression.The U E for me is ground up,gear if at all possible,bolts if necessary,on lead,hooks OK,and saving you stones for the true runout,but not falsely creating them by soloing way below your limit.So I am saying,go ahead and drill from a stance.To keep the game good,the rock has to exert some control of the situation.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jhedge, funny thing is that most of the staunch traddies in the east go to Rumny, have a blast clipping bolts all day and then the next day they are back to complaining about bolts and fluff grades... For the record I am generaly all for keeping the areas and styles intact I am also willing to allow an exception if the rout is of high enough quality.. the more important issue for me is Squeeze jobs. If you rap bolt a great line in a trad area I will be dissapointed that it didn't go in with better style but if it is well done and quality I will not be tempted to chop it.. On the other hand if you hook your way up a squeezejob and place your single bolt within reach of my allready existing classic climb that bolt needs to be removed. If you rap bolt a squeeze job so that it alters the way existing climbs, climb then the rout needs to go. Rojers rock has experienced this last summer. The Matrix to the left of Screaming Meanie is an excelent 4 pitch rout. Unfourtunatly Rap bolted but loads of fun to climb. To the right of Screaming Meanie is a total squeeze job that makes it impossible to climb Screaming Meanie without being tempted to clip the first two bolts of the new rt. The 1st bolt I don't mind as it is TOTALY a retrobolt of the start of S.M. and allows normal people to do the direct start ( I used to traverse in from the right) but that second bolt just screws up the way the rest of the pitch climbs...
Tom, You can't blame the bolts for the crouds. Just que up for Thin Air, Recombeast, Bombardment, Funhouse, Inferno, Whitny G, Moby Grape, Highe E, CCC, Shockly's etc. Etc, Etc....None of those are bolted climbs and many have no bolts at all. The culprit is GYMs, Climbing Schools, too many babies and Marketing......
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Have to say Nick(Tradmanclimbz),the queus...q's....quu...the line,the freakin lines,don't really bother me on Trad climbs even popular ones.If I want to do a classic multi pitch I know I need to go early,or late.
I have had fun clipping bolts at times.Really you can't climb here and not want to get on some bolted stuff at Cathedral and Whitehorse,and not all of it went in ground up.What I personally don't like about Rumney is the grid bolting,path building,fixed draws(are you really climbing something if you can't even clip in situ gear?)and the attitudes I see there.It's like a city,with people vying for parking spaces,no eye contact.Last time there I watched a girl try to borrow my partner's rope because she wanted to lead a climb and hers was not long enough to slingshot.I suggested she just belay on top and she looked at me like I was nuts.
The Gunks is that way now too.If people get on a classic climb there they camp on for hours.We went back to Never Never Land three times one day but the threesome on it tied it up for like six hours.The bolt anchors were intended to assist rappelling and instead created a toproping epidemic.
Gyms are a piece of it.I love people who say they are rockclimbers and have never touched a rock.....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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OK, I've never been on these, nor will I likely ever do anything but walk underneath and look up, but what's the prevailing opinion about these two routes at Reed's:
Crossroads 5.13a * - 1990 Ron Kauk
Phantom 5.13b - 1986 John Bachar
it would seem these two climbs might provide an example raised in Ron's OP question
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Ron's original question is difficult to answer.
Most of what I see on this thread is people once again arguing their case; arguing for a position of trad versus sport.
As usual some of these are very eloquent and I always enjoy reading Healyje’s distinctive & eloquent characterizations.
I don't see very many suggestions as to whether or not these two styles can manage to coexist where there has been long-standing conflict over style.
(Not to discount those who have broached this challenging issue)
Yes, there are areas in the country where they do coexist: the crucial and specific question is, in an area such as Yosemite where we have long-standing conflict, can we come to agreements whereby these two styles can coexist?
That's the tough one.
Some areas in the country, some specific crags happen to support a culture where both trad and sport bolting coexist side-by-side; but did this happen through constructive attempts by the community of climbers to make it so? Or did it just come about in relative harmony without any resistance, without any need to generate agreements.
We have areas in the country where climbers engage exclusively in new bolting by means of traditional style, where that is informally agreed upon, but not formally enforced, such as the Pinnacles of California. We have areas such as the Flatirons and Eldorado Canyon in Colorado, whereby governed committees dictate all new bolted routes must be pre-inspected and bolt spacing must allow safe passage for leaders confident at the grade. These are examples of polar opposites; examples where there is an absence of an accommodation to side-by-side expression of bolting styles.
Most of these threads in the last couple of months have grown out of the Yosemite issue.
In answer to Ron's O P; I'd say in this case it's going to be very difficult for the community to come to such an agreement of coexistant styles, because Yosemite is so high profile, so steeped in traditional history and thereby tantamount to the "last great stand" of the traditional camp. It would seem that a continual if not endless conflict over style will win out over a discussion leading to an accommodation of the sport climbing style.
And if such an agreement were struck, would it open the floodgates onto the slippery slope thereby paving with good intentions the "road to hell", propagating the end of the trad legacy? These are hard questions and good ones. It is difficult to create structures (committees) which will adjudicate such subjective engagements as the use of bolts within a relatively artistic confine of their use by climbers.
I won't make an assertion whether one style should win out over another in Yosemite and short of some heroic triumph of conflict resolution, it's hard to imagine the implementation of a collective agreement which accommodates a side-by-side expression of both bolting styles. But my guess is: the conflict, the fractured community -- this will not be good for the user group, for the climbers as a whole.
-Roy
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jhedge, here in the east the trad climbs all have lines on them as well. It is not just sport that is a ZOO. just too many people in the world. And yes the Gyms, Camps and adventure tours do pump a steady stream of new climbers into the system. They have to otherwise they would go out of buisness.
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jstan
climber
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Indeed as the clientele in Rock Gyms begin to find those physically small gyms too confining one might expect commercial interest in going to public lands and developing specific cliffs into sport areas. As the trade becomes large enough even the high cost of gasoline can be resolved, at least partially, by setting up bus tours for the clients in the home gyms. For those gym climbers who specifically enjoy the presence of large numbers of people, the bus ride will in fact be part of the experience.
At a minimum one would hope such things are not done without first getting a Special Use Permit for commercial activity from the authorities managing the land. Would be interesting to see if any such permits already exist.
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TPinSLC
Trad climber
SLC
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"Ron, I'd think the question would be are you fine with folks putting up routes with very different styles and ethics next to your own routes."
A question I would be interested in hearing answered.
(I am headed back under the bridge)
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I have no concern that traditional climbing will die out. You can look at many sports and other activities and find folks who are dedicated to the traditional means and methods. There are blacksmiths and furniture makers turning out the most amazing works, using traditional tools, techniques and materials. Climbing is no different, those seaking out more adventure, commitment etc. will be drawn to the traditional ways.
Yet, there is nothing that can be done to force traditional climbing on everyone, and honestly I don't think any of the traditional climbers have any desire to do so.
Perhaps the traditional climbers will have to be content to realize that the rocks that will be reserved to the traditional means will be those that are difficult to access and aren't well known.
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WBraun
climber
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tolman
That's exactly how I see it too. Good vision on your part.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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One ps, I'd be just as saddened to see yosemite walls get grid bolted as I would be to see an old growth redwood forest clearcut.
But, I won't go out and spike trees, nor will I chop routes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Perhaps the traditional climbers will have to be content to realize that the rocks that will be reserved to the traditional means will be those that are difficult to access and aren't well known."
There is pretty much the essence-by-extension of the whole just-don't-clip-it mentality and facetiousness of the idea that sport climbing doesn't really affect you if you don't do it. It explicitly acknowledges the reality on the ground - that any rock within reasonable driving time of a major city, and within a reasonable approach of parking, that isn't under the protection of active public land managers or private owners - is being bolted. And it's being bolted to provide new climbs for the folks who persist as sport climbers from the large annual tidal flow of gyms which now act as the commercial 'engines' driving the demographics of our sport.
To be honest, in all these discussions one rarely hears or sees simple, explicit acknowledgements like this from the pro-bolt side of the discussion. And the lack of simple acknowledgements of that reality-on-rock looks like denial to many and really does act to impede what might otherwise make for more constructive discussions on the issue - at least from my perspective.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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extending Smythe's argument, if "don't clip it" is acceptable, why isn't "don't climb it"?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ed - I'm guessing you've never swabbed a dot of bacteria in the center of a clean petri dish of culture medium and seen what happens in the way of restraint...
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