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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 13, 2006 - 05:09pm PT
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i tried you warn you guys.........while i have heard from reliable sources that jh is a thoughtful and humorous person irl, it's clear that everytime hojoe logs on to the intardweb he suffers mightily from forum lobotomy syndrome.
btw, joe, have you done space babble??
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 13, 2006 - 07:19pm PT
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jdhedge, I see that you have posted on ST for a while, but I don't remember you posting on the discussions on ST about fixing the anchors and bolts on 'Space Babble' that have been going on for several years.
The main complaint, first voiced by Karl, was that no one climbs the run-out routes on Middle anymore, and that there is such a sigma attached to any repairs that no one wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. Do you recall the question that Karl put to Coiler last week? When he asked him specifically if he would agree to the effort to replace the bolts on 'Space Babble' and not chop them. Coiler has not responded, at least publicly. This indicates how sensitive everyone is the issue of replacing any bolts on old routes.
Let's go back to the beginning and point out that the reason this is being discussed for so long is that no one has offered to fix the route, the way you suggest or any other for that matter.
After discussing it for 3 or 4 years on ST, Kevin, who just joined us on ST, sparks a real interest in fixing the route. Nothing new, but he was on the first ascent, which means a lot to everyone. (Ron, through Werner, agrees.)
A couple of well respected and conservative guys stand up and say they will do the work, if everyone agrees on the method.
Then you come along with the idea that the route repair and maintenance should be done the same way the first ascent was done. A couple of folks point out that method may not be the best way to get the best long-term results, but I am sure that no one thinks it wrong to do it that way. (Someone is fixing one of my old routes that way.) But, no one thinks your way should take precedence over the time worn rapping down method to repair old routes.
So if you know this person who is planning to fix the route ground up, as you suggest will happen, urge them to talk to Kevin and Ron to find out what those guys think of their plan. Laying it all out on ST is a good way to build a consensus the same way the folks who offered to do the work by rapping in have done. No one is going to ‘eat crow’ if someone gets the job done in a commendable way. This isn’t about the folks involved; it’s about fixing the route.
However, if this person doesn't exist, then we are right back to where we started—a fine, but very bold route, with bad bolts and fixed pins that no one dares to fix. And that no one climbs.
Last point, jdhedge. This little summary is not for you. It is for all the other folks who read along and wonder what will happen next. On this point I don’t know because in most cases folks let things remain broken if there is a controversy on fixing them.
Some folks who seem to know you indicate that you are a blowhard. If this is true, then I want to step up and urge the folks who were working on a solution to continue. There is no controversy in that plan.
Unless of course you really can deliver someone with a better plan.
Roger
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2006 - 10:16pm PT
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Beyond clinging to your one position like a turd to a stick, jg, you haven't offered anything else but your false sarcastic nonsense. How many people have to tell you that you are defending an empty position before you take notice?
Not to shatter your complacent stupidity again but I am also restoring this route so that I can do it again. I am not quite fifty, chump, and a long way from cowardly or diminished in my climbing ability. The kind of mastery that SB requires leaves a strong impression on anyone who does it. I remember the crux moves like I was just there last week. As I have said before, this is my favorite Valley face climb. I might just leave the chalk bag in the car too, for old times sake!
I think that the concept of having really big fun on a death route is what eats at you the most. And that so many other folks have a similarly splendid time up there with so little pro!
You would do well to review your thoughts on a case by case basis and try discarding a few.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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Well you know .......
That is why it's called "Space Babble".
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 13, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
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Much ado about less than nothing for sure.
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TimM
Trad climber
near Joshua Tree
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Dec 13, 2006 - 11:15pm PT
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Steve, Roger, et al. Joey is a troll and he has explicitly told you he is trolling you. Yet, you keep biting on his posts. Just ignore him. You can't argue (debate?) with a fool. Just let him have the last word in the forum and hopefully he will go away and we can return to more inspirational conversation about Space Babble and other historic routes.
Locker-style edit: This has been one of the best threads on ST in a long time. I hate to see it brought down by a troll.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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So right.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 14, 2006 - 01:51am PT
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Steve G: great looking stuff. Nice innovation. Anyone whos been on a wall during an earthquake and seen pins fall out of cracks will apprecieate the fact that these are staying in there and don't need to be periodically reset by climbers of the future, none of whom carry hammers on free routes any more.
2nd) HealyJE pulled and reset some pins out at Beacon, he took before and after pics. It was shocking to see how much of the high alloy just disappears through corrosion - and it's all below grade and not visible to the naked eye. I wouldn't wish a long Middle Cathedral fall to an enemy that at some point would rip a pin out and result in a death or wheelchair. Stainless is the way to go. Especially when you might not have anyone get up to check the crap out for 30 more years.
3rd) I was there that day that Derek flew Karl. Pretty sure it had rained in the early afternoon. Free soloing on a wet day is not germaine to this discussion IMO.
4th) JoeH, despite being a bolt clipper and sports climber, makes a good point for a devils advocate...maybe several when you think on it. IF you are willing to "Fix the Pro" to make it safe on rappel......is that not somewhat contrived vis a vis the ground up FA ethic? My personal view is that anyone of 10 people who have already posted on this thread are capable to do what ever the hell they think is the consensious which appears to have already been reached- ie, which is to strenghten the route and fix some potentially lethal issues. - I personally don't care if they rap it or ground up it, I think if it was me, I'd ground up it or pass, but hey, I don't feel that strongly either way. Who ever gets on it, most important is to do a good job technically. Still- Hedge has some good points.
5th) Steve - Re: your point "When you climb the East Buttress of Middle and hit the bolt ladder would you find it pleasing to clip into bombproof period bent strap hangers or a line of justboughts." Struck a cord with me as not only do I think about that, but I have that first bolt and hanger off that route in my chalkbag carrying it to this day and have been continouiously carrying it since my buddy had it break following that pitch under body weight only sometime @ 25 years ago. History is important to most of us. Going up to a route like "Crack of Doom" and knowing that Chuck Pratt story of hanging out on it while asking for his belayer to run back to the car for gear (which didn't fit anyway): or thinking of Robbins running out the Robbins Traverse 1/2 way up half dome without any big pins, in his old RR's, while I crank it with sticky rubber and plug in a #4 Friend is important to me, and should be to others as well. I suspect it's one of the reasons so many of us lurk here on ST. One of the best parts of your pinbolt concept is that it causes the followers to think about that FA hammering in that pin, which is a radically different thing than clipping a new 3/8" bolt.
6th) G Gnome: I think that you wind up with the best of both worlds with the pinbolt concept. A pin behind an expanding flake or shallow bottoming placement can sort of work until it frost heaves and falls out, or becomes weak: to replace that with another sh#t pin seems kind of pointless. Conversely - bolting next to a thin crack could possibly lead youngsters to believe that bolting next to cracks are OK, but the pinbolt idea - secured to the rock, would be both the logical place to put a piece, and a rememberance to all who followed that IN THIS OR THAT SPOT, Kevin W. or Ron K. actualy stood and pounded a piece, which would be both following the flow of the natural route and a rememberance of the past while making it a bit more secure ........
Anyway, good luck with the project, glad to see it getting hashed out here and getting throughly discussed first.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2006 - 11:31am PT
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Cmaster, Once the route has been established, in my mind, all style and ethical constraints and standards change to impact related concerns. I set the bar for adventure and challenge about as high as anyone and see no meaningful challenge to be met while servicing anchors. Do you put routes up yourself? If so, do you really feel the need to recreate that experience once the route is no longer mysterious and becomes a known quantity?
The onsight aspect of first ascent ethics and style is probably the source of confusion. The way a climber responds to the challenge presented by a stretch of unknown terrain is the essence of personal ethics and style. If you preview, preinspect and work the moves first this is generally considered to be poor style because the unknown and hence the adventure has been scripted out of your experience once you finally get around to actually climbing the route. Most of the sport vs trad arguments spin around the concept of onsight leading contrasting with a rehearsed experience. Where you sit in this debate depends greatly upon whether you place value on the first ascent party's experience or consider it irrelevant. There is no unknown once you have completed a route on a first ascent or repeat so there is no grappling with the unknown to be had.
To simply create difficulty or challenge by working from the ground on a known route doesn't really yield or accomplish anything meaningful that the climbing community should value or judge. Personally, if I fell while restoring a route from the ground and was seriously injured, I would have gained nothing from the potential experience to offset the risk and consequences incurred.
The first ascent is a one time, onsight proposition never to be re-staged or re-enacted in any sensible way. The gift that a bold and committed first ascent party leaves for the community is a route that is as close as possible to untouched with respect to fixed protection and any other indications of ascent. The first ascent principle, in a nut shell, dictates that everybody respectfully leave the routes as they found them to the greatest possible extent including the first ascent team.
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duncan
Trad climber
London, UK
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Dec 15, 2006 - 09:06am PT
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Space Babble is one of my all time favourites – anywhere. It’s great to see that people are looking to restore the route in a way that will give a experience similar to the one we had in the early 1980s (sort out that 3rd belay though!). It would be a fine benchmark for future work of this kind. We have similar problems in the UK with decaying fixed gear, particularly on sea-cliffs where the rate of corrosion is far faster, but have come to no consensus on what to do about it.
I appreciate the spirit behind Steve’s peg-bolt hybrids. However…there have been a number of reports in the UK of sudden, catastrophic, failures of stainless steel pegs that looked in fine shape with no obvious signs of corrosion. This sometimes occurred relatively soon after placement. There is some discussion of this, mostly related to sea-cliffs, here: http://www.ukc2.com/forums/t.php?t=30221&v=1#414601
My understanding is that this has also happened on inland crags. Is there a Metallurgist in the house who would care to comment?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2006 - 10:53am PT
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Steve wrote
"The gift that a bold and committed first ascent party leaves for the community is a route that is as close as possible to untouched with respect to fixed protection and any other indications of ascent. The first ascent principle, in a nut shell, dictates that everybody respectfully leave the routes as they found them to the greatest possible extent including the first ascent team."
Perhaps in some areas, by some climbers, for some routes, but as a general principle I have to disagree strongly. The logical consequence of the statement above for face climbing is that climbers would always leave the absolute minimal pro on first ascent and that climbers who follow should respect the standard of the first ascent party.
The practical result of this philosophy in the Valley and Tuolumne has been routes that are very seldom repeated and more of a gift of the first ascent parties to themselves rather than to the community. Sure, it has it's place, but I'm all for a mix. There are long, frustrating lines on Tuolumne Cracks within a hundred yards of very seldom repeated face climbs of the same grade. Why? Because dangerous routes aren't public service, they are elite service. That's not alway wrong but to glorify it as a gift is a stretch.
On the other hand, routes like Greg has put up, or the few that have mere 15 foot run-outs get done all the time.
It's really not practical to lead and bolt a multi-pitch, relatively safe but spicy bolted route onsight in a push unless you go back and add bolts and craft a contribution to folks who might actually want to climb nearer their limits (even if the limit is 5.9)
I think the weekend 5.8 to 5.10 climber is in the vast majority and I don't agree with an ethic that suggests shutting him and her down if they are unwilling to risk dangerous or deadly falls.
I think there is room for both approaches. 25 years of experience has shown that the "bold only" method has led to neglected, unclimbed routes and a blacklash that ignored the old school completely (sport climbing), rather than refined and adjusted it.
Different stroke for different folks
Peace
Karl
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 15, 2006 - 11:30am PT
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Hi Karl,
I am curious. Does this mean that all new bolted routes done until fairly recently are rarely climbed?
This is just a question of understanding the facts. Fifteen feet runouts are much shorter than just about anything I can thing of.
Roger
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2006 - 11:59am PT
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Hi Roger
You wrote
"I am curious. Does this mean that all new bolted routes done until fairly recently are rarely climbed?
This is just a question of understanding the facts. Fifteen feet runouts are much shorter than just about anything I can thing of."
Obviously the 15 foot number is just a ballpark off the top of my head. Some sections can be more run-out some less.
and I'm not sure what defines "new bolted routes" and "fairly recently"
But it's easy to boil this down.
X rated routes are rarely climbed.
With R rated routes, there is a wide range between "pretty spicy" and "Near X rated" Most R rated routes are rarely climbed. Some exceptions being Stoners, Dike Route, B-Y, and a few others. The Dike route used to get climbed more but seems to be falling off in recent years (but I commonly see guys my age on it!)
There is commonly a line on Shagadelic and the Golfers route, on the other hand. Needle Spoon gets good traffic.
You'll be happy to know that Central Pillar often as a line 2-4 parties deep on it, but Paradise Lost, at the same grade, is rusting and I've never seen a soul on it.
Just the way it is. The best Space Babble can hope for, given all this talk about it, is that it will become a mental testpiece with a renewed reputation, like Bachar_Yerian is in TM. Folks want to do it as much to spray about it and test themselves, as they do for the classic qualities of the rock. No Rep, no climb.
Disclaimer- there are certainly notable exceptions to the above statements, just as there are folks who have fetishes of many sorts in many "sports"!
Peace
Karl
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junior
Trad climber
Modesto. CA
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Dec 15, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Joe writes,I would think that polling those capable of climbing the route (none of whom post here), instead of just polling those capable of rappeling it, would be a good way to build consensus. It is not IMO a matter of just "doing the work". Something, to my mind, would be lost, and a precedent set, by rap bolting it (that route in particular). Maybe it was that picture of Graham (?) pulling over the roof in Yosemite Climber - I don't know. Someone post that shot, please? And I (obviously) don't really care if I'm in the majority or not. I don't always agree with that ground-up style, but I still respect it. I have mixed feelings about it. So sue me.
Hey Joe I'm still capable of doing this route and think if someone is willing to fix the thing please do it along with all the other great routes on middle and on middle's apron. I enjoyed those routes years ago but now there just in need of repair.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Dec 15, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
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Roger, most routes put up these days have bolts at least that close together, even in places that traditionally had few bolts like TM. However, even in the 70s there were lots of routes put up without the long runouts between bolts. Maybe not so much in the valley and the meadows, but the rest of the world was putting more bolts in than every 30 feet. Go to JT and look at the older routes, while a few are quite run, most are nicely bolted and get climbed a lot.
As someone who has climbed in the Meadows for 30+ years I am not sure how I feel about some of the newer routes like Shagadelic. Too many bolts is my initial impression but then I see the lines on them and realize that not every route should have the mental challenges associated with the older routes or they are going to sit and rot like the older routes with just us older folks doing them. A perfect example is on Low Profile Dome, Darth Vader's revenge always has a line of people waiting to do it while Black Widow, which is a better route, rarely gets done because of that 'R' next to it's name.
So, should climbing and new route establishment be controlled by the elite who don't mind the long runouts or by the common person for whom 15 feet is a long way between bolts?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 15, 2006 - 02:18pm PT
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There's a good number of older Tuolumne routes with lots of bolts - and they often are the more popular at the grade, like Ciebola, Ursula, etc. Plenty of lesser known ones with tightly bolted sections up to and including bolt ladders. Actually, even Rawl Drive has its first 3 bolts fairly close together - not much different from Shagadelic bolt spacing (averages 15' between bolts for the 2 long face pitches). And many of the 5.11 and harder routes in Tuolumne have very tight bolt spacing, even down to 5' or so especially at cruxes. I think Shagadelic just touched a nerve due to the rating - if it had been 5.10b or harder, no problem, but at 5.7, big deal.
In any case, there were lots of routes done in Tuolumne in the '70s and early '80s with pretty tightly bolted face climbing.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Dec 15, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
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Actually Greg, I recently did the route you put up on the left side of Darkside Dome. Excellent route. Except for a few too many bolts it is one of the better routes in the Meadows at it's grade. Even then, I didn't skip any clips.
Speaking of Cebola, have you done Aliens or Swiss Orange Chip? Not very many bolts there for some hard 11 routes. It just all depends on who put them up.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 15, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
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Roger wrote:
> ... Do you recall the question that Karl put to Coiler last week? When he asked him specifically if he would agree to the effort to replace the bolts on 'Space Babble' and not chop them. Coiler has not responded, at least publicly. This indicates how sensitive everyone is the issue of replacing any bolts on old routes.
I don't agree with this summary of the two early posts on this thread. Coiler simply said that he felt pins replaced by [plain?] bolts was sacrilege. Others feel the same way, nothing unreasonable there. Coiler did not suggest he would chop replaced bolts. Karl was asking more about the pinbolt idea.
> A couple of well respected and conservative guys stand up and say they will do the work, if everyone agrees on the method.
I initially volunteered to inspect/replace all the fixed gear, after checking for clean gear alternatives to pins where they had been used originally. Later, to simplify things, I decided to leave the replacement of pins to Steve and Kevin. Bruce and I will replace all the bolts a few months from now, when days get longer and warmer. We also secured permission from Kevin and Ron to make a bolt belay at (3) and add a second bolt to the belay at (1). These plans have not changed. If someone with a strong desire to replace the bolts on lead appears and does the job before Bruce and I get to it, that's fine, but either way it will happen.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 15, 2006 - 07:02pm PT
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Cool photo, thanks for posting it Clint! That's quite a high step!
Glad you liked the route Gnome (assuming you mean Imperial March?), yeah it's probably too tightly bolted but I was rope-soloing and hooking/slinging knobs, and a snapped knob shook me up down low (especially with the potential of hitting the slab by the first pitch anchor). As soon as the angle changed after the little roof, I bailed until I could return with a partner (the following year) for the lower-angle stuff up top.
RE: Alien and Swiss Orange Chip - there's no shortage of runout hard routes, but my point was that not all routes done in the '70s/early '80s were runout. Those routes and all the surrounding ones were replaced last year by Roger Brown, so now they are 'back in business' for anyone who's up for it!
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