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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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LEB,
Sure some are not Bush apologists, so then they are OCTers. I identified two groups, OCTers and Bush apologists.
The evidence is overwhelming now. You can either look at the means, motive, opportunity evidence, or the physical evidence or the eye-witness testimony evidence. All together it all points clearly and without doubt to MIHOP. If you don't think so, that is your perogative, however then you haven't looked far enough or have your eyes closed.
Even when Galileo showed some priests using a telescope that the moons of Jupiter were in orbit around Jupiter, and not the Sun, proving that the Sun was not the center of the Universe, they didn't want to believe it, and denied what they were seeing.
OCTers and Bush apologists are in the same position. The facts speak for themselves, yet they denie them. What can we do with that? All the known evidence completely invalidates the OCT and supports the CT, yet you still don't believe.
Keep digging and asking and looking and maybe you will eventually overcome your doubt. But I don't think many OCTers really want to. They want to stay in ignorance.
Nothing more we can do then except talk and show those who are really willing to say "I want to know the truth, no matter what." Until you are in that position, you won't accept any evidence to the contrary.
I never wanted 9-11 MIHOP to be true. Once I was able to come to the point that I wanted to know the truth no matter what, then my eyes opened and I could clearly see the evidence objectively without bias.
When I came to know 9-11 MIHOP I was depressed for a few months. It is a hard road to travel. But my eyes are now wide open, and there is no going back. I know the truth, and I'm ultimately better for it. I know who the real enemy is. I don't have the fear that so many people have not knowing.
We all must travel our own road.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
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OCTers - Official Conspiracy Theory
MIHOP - Making It Happen On Purpose
Google is your friend ............
The US government will never disclose the full truth of 9/11, until the "people" force the issue.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 03:35pm PT
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One fact not to be overlooked when talking about MIHOP are the passages is the PNAC documents that say a new Pearl Harbor is needed to help rally general public support to invade Iraq. Also some of the first words out of Rummy and Cheney after 911 had to do with finding a way to blame the attack on Sadam. These statements only bolster the arguments and facts that point towards many unanswered questions about 911. Klimmer what is the lowdown on the Pentagon? Do you think was an jet or something else? Some say the explosion and damage was minor for a jet?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 11, 2006 - 04:08pm PT
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Yeah, it's been five years, that proves that what ever version of the truth they are pimping this week must be the right one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 04:13pm PT
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Validating TGT's comments on the management of WTC 1 & 2. I design technology infrastructures as part of my consulting practice and part of that is network wiring infrastructures. Any installed explosives in the buildings - which, as TGT pointed out would be impossible to plant - would have to be triggered by wire to accomplish the task. And it would never be possible to do such a wiring job in any of those buildings without network managers being instantly aware of such goings on. First off they'd have to use the same races and trays, and the odds of anyone, even professionals, doing that without disrupting a single existing connection is nil. But the bottom line is there are no races, trays, drops, or access to the columns so aside from physically planting, attaching, or otherwise installing said explosives, you wouldn't be able to wire them.
And don't say wireless detonators - that works fine for individual IEDs, but in electrical storm that is lower Mahattan you wouldn't get five paces from them before they blew and even if you did you'd never get a clean timing. Such systems were only in crude development stage with inital patents in 1999 and were tested using 3m X 3m triggering antenna inside a deep mines to provide the necessary frequency isolation.
No charges were installed or detonated within any of the WTC buildings. Period. As TGT said, any one proffering or believing such theories clearly knows nothing about building maintenance, network infrastructures, or the use of explosives in demolition for that matter.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:29pm PT
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I think the evidence is stacking up in that direction. "
Lois, there is no "stacking up in that direction", massive degrees of incompetence and bureaucratic arrogance and hubris at all levels were responsible. 9/11 was entirely preventable at any one of a dozen clear points along the way. One of the most notable examples of arrogance was Phillipine Intel units tried repeatedly to warn us of the immediacy and gravity of the threat long before 9/11. But you have to take into account the level of arrogance, chauvenism, colonialism, paternalism, and superiority involved with the relationship between the U.S. military, intel, and diplomatic corps and their Phillipino counterparts. Our people have always viewed it as a one-way street - we tell them; they don't tell us. We, for all practical purposes, blew them off completely as we did all of the warnings that came from SE Asia.
Check the wall clock timing in the FAA control transcripts on the three building attacks. The Pentagon plane should have been shot down before making it to D.C. A stunning cascade of failures through an amazing array of systems and organizations resulted in our complete inability to scramble flights to protect the capital. We were lucky they picked the Pentagon which is reasonably robust, the Halls of Congress or the White House would have been complete losses by contrast.
There were lots of opportunity points lost on all fronts. This was systemic incompetence driven from the top to the bottom by faulty priorities, planning, and implementation that persist to this day because of the resources and focus squandered in Iraq.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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No - there is no wireless technology anyone would risk using for explosives in the electical environment of lower Manhattan or within the towers themselves. There is absolutely nothing secret about the electrical spectrum or anyone's ability to exploit it. Any such advanced technologies have such high commercial value that there is no "government" technology development that is unknown to a broad array of pubic commercial interests.
But apart from that, again as TGT said, there was no way possible to access the columns to install a sufficient quantity of explosives without a very large number of building maintenance personnel being instantly aware of it. You simply can't tear open, install, and repair walls in that quantity without notice - it would be completely impossible. And given the buildings were not dropped from the bottom you would further have to be able to anticipate what floors the planes would hit and then give yourself some buffer floors. Again, the installation issue alone makes this impossible and similarly it would be unlikely that poorly trained and inexperienced pilots could have both hit pre-designated floors.
It's way, way past implausible - it is patently impossible.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:52pm PT
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Snooky,
The Pentagon anomalies is what first brought me to learning that 9-11 was an inside job. Plenty of websites now out there with all the initial images taken at the Pentagon immediatley after the impact that show the first primary hole to be no more than about 12 x 16 ft or so in size prior to the roof collapsing about a half-hour later, showing many of the glass windows around the impact hole to still be intact. The vertical stabalizer would have left massive damage and no windows intact. Can't fit an entire 757 through that size hole. Where are the wings that should have impacted the outside facad and sheared-off or other? Where are the 2 massive engines (approx. 6 ft or more in diameter) that would have made massive gaping holes? They say the jet more or less vaporized on impact yet they find all the passengers and can identify them using DNA analysis? There are eyewitnesses and Pentagon personel that walked out the original hole soon after the impact, yet before the roof collapsed who say "What jet? What wreckage?" The guys who did "Loose Change" have these interviews and testimonies on tape, and are now available on Google video or other.
The evidence that was found and the damage caused is consistant with a small military jet aircraft and missile, http://www.physics911.net/ or a missile alone. A few parts of the aircraft point to it being a A-3 Skywarrior
( http://www.karlschwarz.com/02-02-05_Schwarz.pdf ) not a 757. By the way it isn't hard to plant jet wreckage and false evidence. This side of the Pentagon had been undergoing construction renovation for some time.
And infact, we have all seen the video released by the Pentagon that was shown on Mainstream Media (MSM) and shows something other than a 757 approaching the Pentagon, something much smaller trailing smoke (or a contrail like phenomenon) very low to the ground and from a very specific direction.
All kinds of tapes were confiscated immediately on 9-11 around the Pentagon that would or could show what struck the Pentagon. And most have never been shown in public. And they rebuff all attempts to get or see them. Why? What is there to hide? We have seen the jets plow into the WTC towers countless times, over and over. Why can't we see the 757 plowing into the Pentagon? Perhaps because all the tapes that do have it on camera, show something other than a 757 flying into the Pentagon. If they are lying about one major aspect regarding 9-11 then they are lying about all of it.
Do you know that the NTSB has analyized the flight recorder and data, supposively from flight AA77 and it does not at all agree to the flight pattern and approach of what was caught on tape and released by the Pentagon? They can't even keep all their lies straight since they lie so often.
"Sure" is at it again. This guy has real balls to do this and to make these calls. Pretty hilarious really. His phone call on 10-26-06 to NTSB regarding AA77 Flight Data Recorder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPF4Lo4wkJ4&eurl=
New 9/11 Pentagon Data released by the NSTB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F3TvRwh1x0&mode=related&search
Great website. These guys know whats up with 9-11. They are all Pilots for 9-11 Truth:
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:07pm PT
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Oh damn! I was going to reply, but the saucer just showed up; and I've got a new route lined up on a formation in the Sea of Tranquility.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:15pm PT
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Klimmer,
My fathers and brother have a collective time of over 80 years as commercial pilots for United and Fedex in all manner of equipment. All three find the "pilots for 9/11 truth" not credible. They point out that the ranks of commercial pilots contain no shortage of "nutjobs" just like society in general. All of the flight data - particularly instrumented altimeter and timing data were all entirly consistent with the events at the Pentagon relative to acceptable accuracy and calibration of the instruments. The physcal evidence at the scene was also entirely consistent with the equipment used for flight 77.
As to the issue of pilots giving up the flight deck to men with box cutters. They didn't give up the flight deck to men with box cutters - they gave them up to men with box cutters to flight attendants throats. Men like my Father and Brothers all said they would have done the same on 9/11 because no one warned the FAA (and by extension pilots) that there was intel about flying planes into buildings. Had the FAA and pilots been aware of such plots those flight decks would never have been relinquished regardless of who was killed. The fact that all four flight decks were relinquished tells you not only that the plotters behind the hijackers well understood this behavioral profile and dynamic of U.S. pilots as a class, but also that this is simply the sad truth behind those events.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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Everyone claiming that they couldn't possibly wire, or even use remote wireless technology and set charges for CD to bring down the towers is absolutely wrong. They did it. And tenants who were there indicate what was going on for quite sometime before 9-11-01.
Watch the following video. It is one of the best regarding the CD of the towers. And listen to the tenants' testimony. Tell me it didn't happen.
9/11 Mysteries (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
Regarding the possibility of remotely detonating the CD and doing so in the order they want and from the floor they want is not hard to do. The Electro-magnetic Spectrum is vast and mostly unused, every thing from Radio waves to gamma rays. I'm a HAM radio operator. Most of the thousands of frequencies I can legally talk on and use for voice, data, or sending images are unused (and should be thank God) and that is just HAM frequencies, just a very small portion of the entire EM spectrum.
More than likely, WTC 7 was the control center for 9-11 MIHOP, especially the floor that had blast resistant windows recently installed. That's another reason they had to bring down WTC 7. They couldn't allow someone to ask questions and wonder what that special floor in tower 7 was all about could they?
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:33pm PT
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Thanks Klimmer, interesting comments and great links. The size of the hole in the side of the Pentagon is suspicious along with all those intact windows.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:34pm PT
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Klimmer,
Sorry, but you and your brethen are simply blind to the facts, science, engineering, operational, logistical, and coordination requirements involved.
And it isn't a matter of finding spectrum - it's a matter of finding stable, guaranteed unused spectrum and establishing timing wirelessly. It didn't happen.
That folks like you believe it did is simply an extension of the same human frailties that keep concepts like UFO's, Intelligent Design, and a faked lunar landings alive. Sad, and sadder still that cluelessness is growing in direct proportion with our continuing failure to educate our populace. Keep on trucking dude...
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johndoeX
Social climber
NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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Quote -
"My fathers and brother have a collective time of over 80 years as commercial pilots for United and Fedex in all manner of equipment. All three find the "pilots for 9/11 truth" not credible. They point out that the ranks of commercial pilots contain no shortage of "nutjobs" just like society in general. All of the flight data - particularly instrumented altimeter and timing data were all entirly consistent with the events at the Pentagon relative to acceptable accuracy and calibration of the instruments. The physcal evidence at the scene was also entirely consistent with the equipment used for flight 77. "
Your fathers(you have more than one father?)and brother sound like crusty ol' pilots with their minds shut to the obvious conflicts analyzed by professional pilots and accident investigators. I see plenty like your "fathers" and brother flying the line. I usually have to hold their hand doing all the work when flying with those types.. while making most of the command decisions. Please tell them to research before they speak as all of the above issues you mention have been address ad naseum by experts.
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
quote -
"As to the issue of pilots giving up the flight deck to men with box cutters. They didn't give up the flight deck to men with box cutters - they gave them up to men with box cutters to flight attendants throats. Men like my Father and Brothers all said they would have done the same on 9/11 because no one warned the FAA (and by extension pilots) that there was intel about flying planes into buildings. Had the FAA and pilots been aware of such plots those flight decks would never have been relinquished regardless of who was killed. The fact that all four flight decks were relinquished tells you not only that the plotters behind the hijackers well understood this behavioral profile and dynamic of U.S. pilots as a class, but also that this is simply the sad truth behind those events. "
Im sure your fatherS and brother's passengers would love to hear they are cowardly enough to give up their airplane to someone they dont know. The Common Strategy prior to 9/11 was to cooperate. .yes.. but it wasnt to give up the airplane to someone you have no idea if they know how to fly. Even if they kill 2 or 3 passengers/crew.. you give up your ship to someone you dont know.. you may ALL be dead.. as is what happened. In the days after 9/11.. all of us pilots felt that the 9/11 pilots had to be dead to give up their ship.. cause NONE of us would have done that. Perhaps your father"s" and brother need a review in the Chief pilots office discussing decision making skills and proper command response in a crisis/emergency. Capt authority and responsibility is passenger safety FIRST. How does that fit in with giving up your airplane, pre-9/11 or post 9/11, to someone you dont know.
I have a feeling the quotes posted might be telling a tale.. cause i dont know one pilot that would have given up their ship to someone they dont know. Passenger safety and safety of the people on the ground comes first.. no matter what.
Ask your "fathers" and brother to check out the growing "nutters" at pilotsfor911truth.org. We only been in existence for about 2 months and get emails regularly from all the "nuts" in the aviation industry wishing to join.
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
Rob
Co-founder
pilotsfor911truth.org
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:44pm PT
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Hahahah, healyje
Are you starting to lose it? Don't let it get to you man .......
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:50pm PT
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Question johndoex, is it fact that during the 90's there had been intercepted communications from various terrorists that had similar plans for using aircraft as weapons or at least large scale mayhem and murder? Did the FAA send out any warnings during those years? Thanks for the link, that is one to bookmark!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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HJ,
"And it isn't a matter of finding spectrum - it's a matter of finding stable, guaranteed unused spectrum and establishing timing wirelessly. It didn't happen."
Don't you know that is the FCC's job? They license the frequency use of the entire EM spectrum so there is no interference. All I have to do is turn on my HAM radio and I can dial-up countless unused "stable" frequencies and so can the military. In fact, they have a very large portion of the EM spectrum assigned just to them, and no one else can lawfully use that portion of the spectrum. That is why all electronics must be FCC approved. Can't have technology out there using a portion of the spectrum they are not lawfully assigned to use and causing unwanted interference to other users.
You must think it is a crazy wacky world out there when it comes to EM use and anything goes. Not so. Learn something.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:01pm PT
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With McCain, who is a non-starter like Dole, getting your advice on anything just guarantees we'll take the Presidency in two years. Or weren't you awake this past week? The American public will follow through and not turn the White House over to another republican.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:04pm PT
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Fatrad, did you borrow that line of bull from Rush or some other regressive speaker to the pea brain sheeple? The ME will be in conflict well after 2010, no amount of input from any policy experts will completely quell the blood boiling multigenerational anger among those folks and you know it. Why talk about these issues? People have brains and like to use them. The unanswered questions and the information held from public view are astonishing regarding 911.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 11, 2006 - 07:05pm PT
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Well Klimmer, how about we rig you up with some C4, a fractal antenna, a software-tunable radio, and a power switch. We'll drop you off at the WTC site, let you dial in the frequency of your choice, and then give us 2 minutes to leave before you turn on the power and we'll see if you make it 24 hours let alone the days or weeks that would have been required to install and rig such explosives which, again as TGT pointed out, would have been impossible to physically install. Clueless...
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