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overwatch
climber
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I guess you as well. Ecdh was the one being obvious. Guess it must be me but that doesn't seem hard to cipher. Anyway, I don't care.
Upon further consideration, I can see how It could be misconstrued. it is one of those things that can be taken either way more of a writing composition issue. Sorry, febs and randisi
Edit;
I am not going to back edit my posts like so many would do, I own what I say and do. If I am wrong I will admit it and try to make it right.
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overwatch
climber
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^^ bump for message delivery
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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Sorry everybody for getting nervous.
The point is, the matter is freaking serious and a climber's duty and acceptance of her/his own responsibility also means sharing stuff like that.
Being attacked by the herd of "it's your fault" persons wasn't fun, but hey, a climber should really be able to keep self control in a stressful situation.
So f*#k all of you :D
Seriously speaking, I finally managed to ship the item (it took quite some time to agree properly about the proper way to ship the item, because of the very different time zone between here and there, and the holidays). Again, I'll keep this thread updated as soon as I'll have any news.
Cheers
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sorry everybody for getting nervous. That non-lock event could very well have happened just before your death, regardless of backup knots. I'm glad you posted this.
I'd never touch that device again, myself, at the very least not until it had been fully torn down and repaired by the manf, then returned along with a very good explanation of what happened. Thereafter, I'd love to hear about this follow up.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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the reasons why i was inclined to mock and be dismissive of your OP were
1) the title -
to me, it seems presumptive to declare " silent partner failure " , maybe a question mark at the end , or maybe framing it in a less declarative way would seem more reasonable to me .
2) the hand spin test as the basis for your claim of " silent partner failure " -
i'm no expert , but i would be willing to bet money , that spinning the wheel by hand is a completely unreliable way to test the unit , regardless of the circumstances, regardless of variance in results from unit to unit .
...
If it does not lock up when spun fast this is a failure to operate as designed, thus is a failure. The internal mechanism's only function is to lock up when spun fast, as happens in a fall. It did not kill anyone, but that is because the OP caught while checking on the ground.
The manual says (under maintenance and service, my emphasis added):
It is a good idea, however, to routinely inspect the Silent Partner. Check for bent, cracked, loose, or missing parts (See Silent Partner Anatomy, page 6) Rotate the side plates and check for excessive looseness on the axle. Spin the drum slowly to see if it turns smoothly and quietly. Spin the drum quickly to see if the locking mechanism is working. Look and listen for signs of the axle or clutch housing being contaminated by foreign matter. Look at the black rubber seal between the drum and the clutch housing to see if it is still intact. If the Silent Partner doesn’t pass any of these tests, don’t use it. If your Silent Partner locks up a lot when it is not supposed to, it probably has an internal problem and will need to be repaired.
Spinning by hand, or using a hunk of rope is absolutely per the manufacturers instructions, and is the only reasonable way for a climber to test the device themselves.
In my case I first just spun it by hand while putting away gear, only it did not lock. So I put a chunk of 10.5mm line into it and yarded on it. Previous experience is that it would lock up after maybe 6-12" of rope was pulled through it, instead it failed to lock up pulling a full armful through as fast as I could. After a bit of playing it gradually went back to readily locking up. I have no idea whether it would eventually lock up at high enough speeds or not, and I am glad I did not find out.
After they opened and repaired my unit I got a pretty short response that they found a small amount of grit past the rubber seal, but no other issue and that it was fully retested prior to shipping back to me.
Also, it would be easier to take you more seriously if you learned some capitalization.
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saku korosuo
Big Wall climber
Finland
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I also tested my SP. It worked perfectly after bivying in a freezer.
I have used mine for many years (also in the winter, despite manufacturer's recommendation) and have never had any problems with it.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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THIS. . .
If it does not lock up when spun fast this is a failure to operate as designed, thus is a failure.
The internal mechanism's only function is to lock up when spun fast, as happens in a fall.
It did not kill anyone, but that is because the OP caught while checking on the ground.
The manual says (under maintenance and service,) (His/sic.) my emphasis added:
It is a good idea, however, to routinely inspect the Silent Partner. Check for bent, cracked, loose, or missing parts (See Silent Partner Anatomy, page 6) Rotate the side plates and check for excessive looseness on the axle. Spin the drum slowly to see if it turns smoothly and quietly.
Spin the drum quickly to see if the locking mechanism is working.
Look and listen for signs of the axle or clutch housing being contaminated by foreign matter. Look at the black rubber seal between the drum and the clutch housing to see if it is still intact. If the Silent Partner doesn’t pass any of these tests, don’t use it. If your Silent Partner locks up a lot when it is not supposed to, it probably has an internal problem and will need to be repaired.
Spinning by hand, or using a hunk of rope is absolutely per the manufacturers instructions, and is the only reasonable way for a climber to test the device themselves.
In my case I first just spun it by hand while putting away gear, only it did not lock. So I put a chunk of 10.5mm line into it and yarded on it. Previous experience is that it would lock up after maybe 6-12" of rope was pulled through it, instead it failed to lock up pulling a full armful through as fast as I could. After a bit of playing it gradually went back to readily locking up. I have no idea whether it would eventually lock up at high enough speeds or not, and I am glad I did not find out.
After they opened and repaired my unit I got a pretty short response that they found a small amount of grit past the rubber seal, but no other issue and that it was fully retested prior to shipping back to me.
BUT ,
Also, it would be easier to take you more seriously if you learned some capitalization.
seriously? or SERIOUSLY? FOOM you MOOF, for this, or That? ;-D
But I totally agree with your analysis as to the device ~ it failed ~
I saw someone fall from the lip of the Modern Times overhang , To Test the rig,
a full free hanging
count to 3 and let go,
he went along long way %+(
and swung hard into the wall.
It was an non-redundant, un-belyed test (CRAZY) he went 50 feet !
(very close to ledge-ing out)
and the few that have taken long whips saw the 'failure' as a part of the risk. From what I read or heard. Not everything ( NO Thing ) can deliver 100% results, over time, every time . . .
The SP has a good track record and has its devotees. It is the best and most used solo lead device and holds a special nitch in climbing big walls solo.
I think. . . Is it A Kirkpatrick? that has gone to great heights and written a lot about it?
Full Disclosure:
This is from the peanut gallery,
.... though
Ive used one three times , not enough to be comfortable,
and I did not test the real time efficiency. I was on a short (300ft climb), where I was never at risk of blowing off a hard move or the need to down climb/ route find /clean gear or crap from the route.
GOLF Can be Dangerous
YES !
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janeclimber
Ice climber
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overwatch said:"I also have a soloist which is supposed to work on icy muddy frozen ropes any feedback on that Mr Braun? I have never tried it in those conditions and I thought it was just too fiddly so I switched to the SP."
Yes, soloist works on ice muddy frozen ropes. I have used soloist for TR ice climbing several seasons, always with backup knots. I also know other ice climbers use it. But I have never used soloist for leading ice route.
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Klimbien
Trad climber
Orange Walk, Belize
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I've seen a two people in Ouray using SP, leading. I'm curios to see what develops of this thread. Just today I was helping my brother shop for a SP.
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overwatch
climber
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Thanks, janeclimber.
I think the op has a rare isolated incident/defect with his unit, it happens that is why we back up our devices no matter what if you are in it for the long haul. I wouldn't let his issue stop you from checking out the SP
vvvvv ok vvvvv
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2016 - 02:37am PT
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I think the op has a rare isolated incident/defect with his unit, it happens that is why we back up our devices no matter what if you are in it for the long haul.
If I used an SP I would back it up due the black-box nature of the device and the inability to know what's really going on inside one. I also use backup knots for solo aid. But I don't for free rope solo leading and have already been in it for the 'long haul'.
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 10, 2016 - 07:00am PT
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Glad it is working out for you
vvvvvvv I don't get it vvvvvvv
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2016 - 02:19am PT
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Update, my SP is still in Berlin.
Since the shipping cost to the US was quite high they suggested me to send the item to a partner of them in Berlin and they would have sent it to the USA.
The problem is that it is still sitting in Berlin.
That is all so far.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2016 - 12:40am PT
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They promised me a refund since a replacement unit couldn't be shippet to Europe for a matter of certifications (I got mine through a friend).
That happened three weeks ago, I still got nothing. I wrote them some emails, they answered that "they're working on it".
I'm confident I'll have my money back, I trust them. But this really confirms the slowliness of how they deal with customers.
No matter how upset some fanboy may get for that, I want to report it for the sake of other climbers.
Best regards.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Feb 18, 2016 - 10:13am PT
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I don't think you need to worry about fanboys. Everyone is capable of making their own decisions.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 18, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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Soloist leading on ice.
To the op, I can appreciate your concern when testing a solo belay device and finding it isn't working per the manufacturers design and instructions. It tends to freak one out when they consider what would happen if the device failed on a climb.
As mentioned climbing is dangerous, soloing more so. You don't have a partner to double check knots, anchors, gear, etc and you are both belaying yourself and climbing at the same time which is dividing your concentration between two distinctive different activities.
There is something to be said for keeping the self belay method as simple as possible. Dual lockers and clove hitches have much to be said for their simplicity. A device that slides along the device and grips in a fall is very tempting, but it has a variety of failure modes and just as you shouldn't trust a single piece of gear for an anchor, so too you shouldn't trust an automatic device without a backup. I've suffered from a brain fade and ran the rope backwards through my soloist, i.e. the anchor end was the free end. So add human failure to gear failure. But I try and take Werner's approach of treating rope soloing as free soloing while carrying a rack, rope and placing gear.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2016 - 07:33am PT
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This story ended.
I got my refund. It took this long to be processed, thus confirming the frustrating slowliness of Rock Exotica, but as always, despite being uber-slow, they have been fair.
So bad I couldn't get another unit without that issue, I will need to start over learning a different system. I was totally in love with my SP before this issue happened.
Cheers everybody.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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So you think everyone should dump their SP? Or just follow the directions and don't use it in freezing or close to freezing conditions? Just interested in your final take besides RE is too slow.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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So you think everyone should dump their SP? Or just follow the directions and don't use it in freezing or close to freezing conditions? Just interested in your final take besides RE is too slow.
I'll never use one again. Anything that intermittently fails to properly operate with no obvious issue is way too suspect for me. I share my own experience with others and let them do what they will with it. My issue showed up in dry conditions around 40F. Nothing I did was outside of the recommended usage. Wren at the time only reported a small amount of dirt past a seal. In my opinion something in the mechanism is prone with gumming up and can fail to trigger a lock if the lubricant is thick and pools up in the wrong spot. Even grit getting into mine is suspicious. It was well taken care of and only used on about a dozen pitches.
It wasn't worth it to me to cut mine open to investigate further, but I am very curious to see the details of the mechanism to see what moving parts could be prone to being jammed just due to thick lubricant.
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