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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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The "enhancement" issue did not come up anywhere prior to these threads. At NO point did anybody accuse us of it at the time, and it was never mentioned in any of the published materials. So, this is a recent "issue," John, and not a justification of the rabid group-think that dominated the past. As Pete has noted, if we had never mentioned it, this "issue" would never have arisen.
Also, let's make up our minds, shall we? Does it "invalidate a route," as Mimi (not me) repeatedly states, or does it not, as you seem to be suggesting now? "Questionable style?" What in the world does that MEAN? That style was employed by your own gods for long before we ever appeared in the Valley. Is it "questionable" when the Bird does it? Or is it only "questionable" when two yahoos do it? If the latter, then the incredible RESTRAINT with which we did it (as yahoos, of course) should be to our credit when compared with the standards of the time (i.e.: Bridwell and the Sea, as we were constantly told).
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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"Is it "questionable" when the Bird does it? Or is it only "questionable" when two yahoos do it?"
Yes, now you are getting it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Actually, the Bird's tactics on the Sea stand on their own merits. This is the problem you guys have had for years, you simply cannot avoid conflating WHO a person is with HOW you perceive what they've done. If we "butchered" WoS, then the Bird et al butchered the Sea far worse by any standard you care to employ, and no amount of "continuous cracks" is going to save you from that conclusion. (If they "features" were sooo continuous, then why all the drilling/modifying?) But it's simply stupid to go down that path. OF COURSE the Bird et al didn't butcher the Sea! But then, neither did we butcher WoS.
Regarding the "1000 bolts to Horse Chute," actually that line first appeared in one, then all of the Camp 4 bathroom stalls. Then it was yelled at us repeatedly, sometimes from across the Village store. There could be many theories as to why you didn't hear it--including, perhaps convenient memory loss. But, this is a stupid thing to speculate about, isn't it?
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Klaus tell what the bird did on your route? If it was really him then shame!!!
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Whoa! I've had difficulty keeping up with this gargantuan thread. I'm amazed that I'm the first to suggest that it was okay to defile your gear?! You must've missed the "admission" post on WOS XXIV. You guys are so damned soft! Cowards for taking a crap? Sophmoric maybe. I think it's hilarious. You deserved as much. What huge pussies you are!
Cowardice was you not bailing off the route when you realized early on that you hadn't a clue. Standing on a terrifying hook for HOURS didn't send a signal? And as you continued to emphasize in your '83 article, you were in a daze or something like that; I don't have it in front of me at the moment. So you break out the chisel/drill and get to work. Wow, what a difference that little 12 pt font adjustment made! All I can say is, I think it's more honorable to admit to a mistake than to blindly charge forward out of arrogance/stupidity and ignore the advice of others with a much better perspective.
Edit: Don't even go there comparing yourselves or what you did to Bridwell. His record speaks for itself.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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If the internet tells any truth of climbers... I'd hate to be one!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Cool! Now we're almost in agreement, John! What makes it "questionable" is that WE did it. Then, you MUST be on the brink of congratulating us and sighing in relief as you realize what incredible restraint we employed (being yahoos and all), when, clearly, being yahoos, we could have done far worse than we did, and, amazingly, on our first FA outing on the stone did better in this regard than was done on the Sea!
We are actually on the same page now! WoS is less drilled and modified than the Sea, which MUST mean that we actually did a GOOD job on that front! Of course, we might have still been complete yahoos AND slow, but at least we're in agreement now about the relative "destruction" that took place on WoS! I'm jazzed, man. We're about ready to shake hands, huh?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bullsh#t is right, total bullsh#t. None of this is rocket science and it doesn't matter a rats ass where this occured relative to some pretty damn simple questions:
1) It was a legitimate line to take or it wasn't. Period. If your think not state exactly why it wasn't and isn't a legitimate line to climb.
2) If it was a legitimate line then:
a) They either did or did not do the climbing on the route
in a style that assumed risks in order to minimize the
impact of the passage over the stone.
b) Their "enhancements" are either obvious and persistent as
they are on all the other aid classics or they were so
minimal as to either be invisible or that weathering
eliminated them.
c) Could anyone, then or now, have done the route, or
a nearby line, any differently? Or in any better style?
Their tribal status, how much sh#t they took, and whether they took the time to hold prayer services on the route are utterly irrelevant. What was the true nature of the climbing they did? What I'm really hearing, given Pete and Ammon's assessment of what they saw, is that while some of you may have been able to do it faster and/or lighter, none of you could have done it significantly different or in any better style. That's all that matters. So what a lot of you are really claiming is this part of the stone was and is basically offlimits to climbing - again, I suspect at least a couple of old guys from Whitehorse might tend to disagree with that opinion.
Pretty much all the rest of what I'm reading here is a bunch of tribal bullshit and I have no stake whatsoever in the matter beyond a couple of cases of Oregon's finest should someone repeat it. Had Pete and Ammon reported back the FA's butchered their way up the apron I'd have been right in there telling Ricard and Mark to crawl under a rock. In this case, though, it seems pretty damn clear to me it's more about what collectively crawled out from under a rock over them puting this route up.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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"WoS is less drilled and modified than the Sea"
Sorry, I'm not convinced of this statement, unless I hear it from Jim himself. Remember, Madbolter, you did the fifth ascent, if I recall correctly? Lots could have happened (and it did) in the second to fourth ascents.
(De-lusion is not just a term for the trick of a magician)
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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John, is Jim god? Are you god? God of aid?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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in 2005, one of you guys wrote:
"So, yes we were up there a long time, but under the conditions we had, it is unclear that the time we took was inordinate... in fact, Rob Slater told me that after fixing they were making about a pitch a day up to the fifth anchor where they stopped, and they didn't have to drill any rivets from top-looped micro-hooks"
since you guys are so kindly being specific, exactly how many bolts and how many rivets were drilled? i gather that you had 4 anchor bolts per pitch, so exactly how many holes were drilled for protection, per pitch? thanks very much. (is there an accurate topo posted anywhere? i didn't see one at the consulting site).
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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"a couple of cases of Oregon's finest should someone repeat it."
ahhhh, Blitz Weinhard... An off the couch ascent?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Good point, John. We did do the fifth of the Sea. So, the question then, if the Bird et al didn't do all that stuff has two parts: 1) HOW did they get past those clearly necessary modifications? And I think that those who have done the route will agree that the "enhanced" hooks in many places (as well as the chopped ledge system) were necessary to getting up. 2) WHO (among entirely respectable former parties) did ALL that "trashing" of this beautiful route? Either way, the problem isn't solved for you, because well-known and respected climbers did that route before us. Of course, maybe it's an easier bullet for you to bite to claim that Price or Slater, for example, did all the modifying than to admit that we didn't utterly botch WoS.
Fortunately, those are the only two questions that are going to fly, because when WE did it, we were scrutinized every day (from the ground and a nearby route) at a level that would guarantee that we didn't do any, must less all, of that drilling.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ah, yes, the waft of California brewing tribalism - wine yes - but beer? Any day of the week - California gets drowned everytime on that matchup...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Matt, I've posted that info on an earlier thread (1 or 2), and I can't use my home computer right now to look it up. But all that info is in the back of my book, from which I lifted it to post.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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on oct 26th 2005, MSmith wrote:
"If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt."
so what were you saying there?
were you saying that if you can modify a route in a way that is not visually apparent, then no harm, no foul? because now you are saying that you did "enhance" somewhere between "several" annd "many" hook placements, and that you did it w/ a very sharp drill bit, acting as a chisel.
thanks again.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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HAHAHA... Maybe LOL!
Maybe I had too much to drink at lunch! Hope not, as I had to come back to work afterwards. But, Man! This is actually becoming humorous to me. Somehow I'm thinking that this really is just a game at this point. A game to see how riled people can get with irrationalities.
I remember being in college and playing what were called computer "MUD"s, which is where the name Nefarius (I know it's misspelled, BTW, but a word for a name wouldn't be any fun would it?) actually came from. Anyway, my frineds and I were quite good at this online game and were even mentioned in a book or two, about MUDs, in general, due to our adeptness at killing other players and taking their sh#t. We were also pretty good at finding bugs in the game and exploiting them.
The reason we were so adept and fast, and I'm getting to my point here, is that we would all be in the same room, in a computer lab, at school. So, while other groups of people were spread out, we were in the same room able to communicate freely amongst ourselves. If someone attacked one of us, or we were attacking someone else, all of our typing was devoted to the attack, rather than having to message each other back and forth AND attack...
Anyway, for some reason, I envision a small group of a few people here, sitting in a room saying things like, "OK. So what completely absurd thing can we say to get people riled up next?" "Hmmm... Well, you've already said that, so what if you spin it this way?" "Oh! I know, THIS will really bake their noodles and get them going..." "Oh, I know, I'll post under a different name!" And so on, and so on...
Maybe, rather than an article, the higlights of these threads should be sent directly to a magazine so that the climbing community can make their own decision about the logic here...
Either way, f*#king heeeelarious! My own drivel and outburst included! =) Sure beats setting up the new firewall and DMZ on our network this afternoon!
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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From above: c) Could anyone, then or now, have done the route, or a nearby line, any differently? Or in any better style?
That's really the point isn't it? We'll never know now because two boneheads did the first ascent in such poor style that a another party was robbed of the opportunity to do it in much better style. No doubt about that. Then or now, or in the future, climbers should respect the stone (and other climbers) and not beat the rock down to their level. Haven't I read this somewhere before?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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See, Matt, most people read that as, in it's simplest form, "The "enhancements" were so minute that you're not going to see them. The only place you see where a drill or chisel, or whatever touched the route is at the rivet and bolt placements."
Seemed pretty cut and dry to me.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Preach it, Randy! You're so right. Same old, same old. I'm done.
edit: uh, bad simultaneous posts. This one goes back to your second one up.
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