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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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Quit yammering over my bullsh!t and study Largo's post ......
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Sep 12, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
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It's an odd argument. I can't see hypocrisy where no one is saying anybody else should do anything. We make our own choices how and what to climb. I think any GU on sight lead of maybe hard 5.10 and up starts getting pretty sketchy regardless of whether one can climb 5.12, especially on a slab where you probably can't hook. I don't think they hooked in those days anyway...
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
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Largo, have you ever been to Czech republic?
They had 5.11c in 1932 (bolts 40 feet apart) Skinner had people clip the first bolts on these for Beth Wald photo's. Skinner also backed off many of the routes.
Before Bachar died he asked me to help him with a book, argument for ground up ethics,the Czech's did a great job and the routes are governed (country law) by the community. There are many routes there that have never seen a second ascent. So, they will not see new bolts or they will be chopped. I agree to not placing bolts on established climbs, but the natives are getting restless.
Edit: Lechlisky and Bachar were there, you know this.
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
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BTW:When the "Arrowhead Arete" 5.8 was established in 1958, it was considered the hardest route in the world. Don't make me laugh... Ha ha ha
Mark Powell was rad though.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
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Question: Since when does the frequency with which a route is climbed determine it's validity?
This logic would render some of the most impressive accomplishments in our sport invalid.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
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this thread isn't quite complete
there, that's better
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 12, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
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JL-you make me giggle with all this rodeo, mucho talk...reminds of men in a gym on a friday night because they aren't cable of maintaining a healthy relationship with a woman, lifting weights, grunting, and egging each other on in front of wall to wall mirrors-the opposite of the mucho world I was brought up in
Why this is totally and shamelessly dishonest is that none of us did the complaining. None of us were ranting about modern climbers being sacless because it's not true. No body who did run out routes back in the day was ever doing anything remotely like the silly example listed above of Bluto posturing in front of a mirror. This is what psychologists call a "reversal," whereas someone takes issue with what someone else did (run the rope), and then accuses them of having the problem (with girls, in this case). No who, exactly, has the problem? The old farts who put up the run out routes, or the Johnny Come Lateley's who disparage the old guys for their efforts. Then go on to say how we are the ones consumed by what others think. Fact is, I don't know one of the old school run out guys who gave a rat's ass what others thought about their climbing. And at that times there was no crowd who did care. All of this yammering is stuff you rube's are pulling out of you ass, deflecting the simple fact that when it comes right down to it, you're light. It matters little to us if you think this is macho or posturing or whatever because you are the one complaining and not mustering the sac to dick the "museum climb." And Joe's argument that the run out roues were 2 or 3 grades below our limit is totally midguided because our limit was only achieved after many, many efforts, and the routes we are talking about had to be on-sighted. And no one in their right mind was going to try and on-sight at a level they could achieve only after a dozen or so falls. Had you ever actually put up one of those museum climbs, Joe, you would understand this very clearly. 5.11 was the absolute limit of what any of us would ever want to try and on-sight with any sort of runout because it was all we could handle. I am flattered to hear you think that yo believe we were just waltzing up this sh#t with the greatest of ease, but in fact when we were, say, belaying Kevin W. up the FA on pitch two of Black Primo, which is "only hard 5.10, but features a gigantic fall if you blow it, we were shitting bricks. And when Ricky Accomazzo was on-sighting The Wave on Greasy but Groovy, only 5.11c, but terribly run out, we were also crapping our pants as he looked at an eighty footer. This was the rodeo back in the day. The idea that it was somehow invalid because it wasn't at the technical level we had achieved on the boulders is non-argument in this regards. It was our max on-sight. And not one person who did this rodeo thought or felt himself a fraud. I would suggest you getting up on one of thee museum climbs and reporting back to us how much or a fraud and a poser you feel like once yo get way out there on the sharp end. This kind of talk really is just the silliest fear-based clap trap imaginable.
A real cowboy doesn't posture. He doesn't brag about stuff nor worry about what others think, and we never did. If you don't like that approach - more power to you. Lie the old motto goes - No complaining is allowed. You either get out there and do it nor you don't. Nobody cares about anything else.
JL
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
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Some great posts in this thread, Largo's most of all.
Run-out is all over the place in climbing and part of some real classics.
Uniting as a community to fix run outs is not even realistic. Who says we can come close to including all who should be involved in a decision like this? The community is ever changing, if not growing older, and softer, then drumming up potential we can barely dream of...
See: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2214423/Seek-and-You-Shall-Find
So, which groups decide for everyone?
The Ethic (not law) to respect the FA is what we've got to ensure that we don't mess things up for everyone. No one can make everyone happy. Advocates for the original FA are needed now more than ever with so many climbers getting drills and focusing on "route setting." There might be rare cases of routes for a community to approach an FA party about in the development of a death flake... Otherwise, seems we must tolerate if not respect what we might not ourselves want to climb.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 12, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
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John,
Thanks for that response. You could have passed on this whole thing, but I kind of like the fact you dug in and fully expressed yourself.
I've been a rec climber for the past 45 years, and have often lacked the "sac" to do a lot of climbs. I can relate to your "you either do it or you don't". Does not bother me if I don't, and I don't start looking for people to blame. My best lead was 10 Karat Gold at Suicide. To this day I'm glad there are climbs like that out there for when the stars align.
Most of the time I simply back off and do a climb I feel more comfortable with.
I really don't understand this debate. There are thousands of climbs out there at every level. Do it, or don't do it. It's all about staying in the game !!!
Cracko
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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Cracko, the debate is about entitlement.
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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So, who drove the rodeo back then? Sure wasn't an American.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 12, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
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A real cowboy doesn't posture. He doesn't brag about stuff nor worry about what others think, and we never did
Methinks the lady doth protest too much . . .
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
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Mari Gingery once said: "Sharpen your skills before you sharpen you drill"
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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Joe, the needles route is "Phosphorescent Flow"(5.9) Mari Gingery established this route. I have a photo somewhere.
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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This is the best troll I have ever seen... Keep it coming :D
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
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John.... thank you for writing the words that go with the feelings I have on this subject.
I sort of skipped english 205.... was out climbing.
And Joe Hedge... your wrong about Largo being a 5.13 climber, he never rated a climb 5.13 that he FAed. That was done many years later, by other folks.
The same with Kamps.... he rated stuff hard 5.10 cause he figgured thats as hard as he could climb.
J. Gill wasnt claming his problems were v10..... no that was done years later, by others.
best topic on the Taco in like 5 years
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:14pm PT
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Guy, you nailed it!
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
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Chim-Chim:
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 12, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
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I have been on approximately 40 alpine expeditions and have always, save one, tried to do a first ascent for these reasons.
1) Less intimidating because you have no prior knowledge of the horrors you are about to face.
2) Much less embarrassing to fail on a first ascent than on a climb already done.
3) Do an abscure climb and provide confusing beta and it will never be repeated and will receive a reputation it doesn't deserve,
Win....win.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 12, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
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Hedge why don't you just do routes 2-3 grades below your level too? A sidewalk on a hill maybe?
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