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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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not my stats to spin...bluey..got anything to support your contention that many of these are 'gang related?"
Um, no. But I could probably find some if I wanted to.
The point is, that by definition, lawful gun owners are just that! They only use guns in self-defense, range-shooting, or hunting.
They also tend to exhibit extraordinary gun discipline, aka gun safety.
Do you find it weird that the Chicago killings 2 weeks ago (and this week too) get no attention but we are focused on a whitey in Colorado???
There were 30 shootings ( and I think kills) in Chicago, bro? That's more than Aurora. WTF?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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AURORA, Colo.—Aurora shooting suspect James Holmes applied to join a Colorado gun range but never became a member after the owner became concerned over his "bizarre" message and behavior.
Owner Glenn Rotkovich says Holmes emailed an application to join the Lead Valley Range in Byers on June 25 and there were no overt warning signs in that form.
Holmes said he was not a user of illegal drugs or a convicted felon, so Rotkovich followed up by calling Holmes' apartment to invite him to a mandatory orientation the following week.
Rotkovich got Holmes' answering machine and says "it was bizarre -- guttural, freakish at best."
Rotkovich left two other messages but eventually told his staff to watch for Holmes at the July 1 orientation and not to accept him into the club.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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Exactly, Norton, a responsible shooter questioned the sanity of this asshat.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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No, ron.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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"A study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery found that the gun murder rate in the U.S. is almost 20 times higher than the next 22 richest and most populous nations combined. Among the world’s 23 wealthiest countries, 80 percent of all gun deaths are American deaths and 87 percent of all kids killed by guns are American kids."
To me it is a weird experience to see men in their best age doing what they can to explain this alarming statistics away instead of taking it seriously. Some Americans are very strange to me.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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What people keep failing to understand is that the're evil people and that evil exists.
There are also very well armed good people who stand guard.
This rat piece-of-shit chose to prey upon innocent women/children/men when they were defenseless. He is a coward and a predator.
That's it!
God will judge him harshly, I'm sure. He will rot in hell. But the lesson for us is not that guns caused this, but that evil men did this. I stand guard over my family.
Another thing, I really need to go climbing~~
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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REALLY? So I, as a gun owner, commit a felony by selling a gun to someone who is prohibited. And how am I to make that good faith determination?
Yes REALLY!
Apparently you've never heard of a background check.
You could also ask to see a CCW permit or hunting license and if you're not sure, don't sell it.
It's pretty simple really.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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Someone please explain to me why a background check is required to buy from a dealer
and no background check is required to buy from your neighbor or from an ad in the newspaper?
what's the difference? Is it because one gun is sold for the first time as new and we don't then care who buys the same gun again as used shortly afterwards?
or is it purely to get the new gun sale into the computer system, serial number, etc
to help track it back if used illegally?
Gun laws seem to not mean anything in terms of stopping criminals from getting and using guns to commit crimes, given how easy it is to buy a gun instantly.
Are they ANY gun laws that make sense?
Should we all be able to buy any grade military weapon because the bad guys can?
The NRA seems to believe we should all be able to have an Abrams M1 tank in our back yard.
As a multiple gun own and CCL holder, I don't know what if any the answer is.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 22, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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The simple fact is, laws don't stop anyone that is intent on breaking them.
I vote for harsher penalties and longer term jail sentences.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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Do we have a constitutional right to have clips that hold 50 rounds?
If yes, is the argument because:
if a criminal can have a 50 round clip, therefore everyone else in America should also?
So, do we end up with no gun laws of any kind, because the bad guys don't follow any laws?
Is that the reasoning?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 22, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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Why would anyone think that someone who is willing to commit murder is going to obey a high cap magazine ban?
BTW in 2007 there were roughly 30,000 gun related deaths in the US...(actually over 50% of those deaths were suicide)
the same number of people died from accidental poisoning that same year.
Why is no one concerned about poison?
There were over 40,000 automobile related deaths in 2007...should we ban cars? or limit how fast they can go?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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Well, I have been cruising the gun death statistics and the facts seem to contradict the notion that the cities with the toughest gun control laws with the least armed population would have the highest gun death rates.
In fact, the opposite appears to be true:
States with Strong Gun Laws and Low Rates of Gun Ownership Have Lowest Firearm Death Rates
Washington, DC—States with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death according to a new analysis by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) of 2009 national data (the most recent available) from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.
The analysis reveals that the five states with the lowest per capita gun death rates were Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. Each of these states had a per capita gun death rate far below the national per capita gun death rate of 10.19 per 100,000 for 2009. Each state has strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. By contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death. Ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi. http://www.vpc.org/press/1204death.htm
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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studies are studies Norton
don't know what you mean by that, Ron
my guess is that because the facts, the truth, the "studies" directly contradict the "theory" that a fully armed population will have the least gun deaths, and that is not what you personally want to, or do in fact, believe
and so you try to minimize, lessen, these "studies" as things to not be believed?
Now, I may be all wrong, Ron, so forgive me if that is not where you are coming from
If studies and research and facts and what we test to be true are NOT to be trusted, Ron
then what is to be trusted as the truth?
is it what we "want" to believe, and tested factual stuff is "just studies"?
Not trying to start any argument here, just trying to find out what is really true and what is made up
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 22, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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6) Ive been RECENTLY been threatened because of an official Border patrol hat on the dash of my vehicle given to me by a cousin.
And people rag on officers because they don't wear uniforms to diners, making themselves targets?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 22, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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Hillrat
Havent hit the crag yet. Im.scared by having a gun? So then nobody neefs martial arts just avoidance training and that guarantees nothing bad will happen... Everything is avoidable? Where did i say i want military hardware? im not a felon. The feds licenced me for hazmat and other things so i must not be a nut despite your opinion. Youve been shot at by people who knew what theyre doing why didnt you avoid it?
Your argument seems driven purely by emotion not logic and you sound incapable of self evolution. my views on gun control have evolved. Some of the things ive posted here conflict with NRA ideals but youve ignored that. What weapons do you own and why with your avoidance theory did you not avoid being shot at?
Ah, as I thought. You have no clue about martial arts.
Like all extremists, you state things in extreme ways. no, you cannot avoid everything. But you can avoid a lot of things.
But you are not reading my posts carefully. You SAY you are not a nut, a felon, and are not seeking military hardware. Good enough for me. You pass a background check, and I'm fine with you or anyone like you owning guns.
The weapons I own is immaterial to the discussion. The people who shot at me were being paid to do so.
enough of your 3rd degree.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 22, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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Norton,
To me that's obvious. It's a mystery how anyone is able to ignore it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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To me that's obvious. It's a mystery how anyone is able to ignore it.
I am not saying Ron or anyone else is ignoring
just suggesting that people believe what they want to believe is true, and then when confronted with direct evidence that says otherwise, then instead of changing their own minds because of the evidence, they dig in harder and say the facts are somehow wrong
we see this a lot of the political threads
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 22, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
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Ron
There is a study showing:
"A study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery found that the gun murder rate in the U.S. is almost 20 times higher than the next 22 richest and most populous nations combined. Among the world’s 23 wealthiest countries, 80 percent of all gun deaths are American deaths and 87 percent of all kids killed by guns are American kids."
Is there another study showing the opposite? If you can not show us the study showing the opposite, you are just proving Norton's point.
How is the link you provided proving the opposite? It does not.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 22, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
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Norton, for every study there is an equal and opposite one done
nope
if this is true, and I have presented a recently dated study
then can I invite you to also present a recent credible study that refutes it?
better yet, how about you show more than one?
just to prove me, and all those other studies I did not bother showing, wrong
edit: show the exact language as I did, not just the broad link, that shows you actually read what you posted
thanks
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 22, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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Ron
You just proved Norton's point. Thanks!
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