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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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A serious THRASHING of the PERP(s) would be in order...
So, who's the perps?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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This is how it works:
Problems arise.
Problems are aknowledged by NPS.
NPS posts on SUPERTOPO to warn of said problems.
Land managers are sent messages via the NPS, directing them to SUPERTOPO, so they can "Catch up" on the "Issues"
Land managers follow the thread, post for post, and make decisions based on the "FACTS" that are stated in the thread.
NPS and land managers threaten to close climbing there forever.
Elite climber diffuses the situation, through mediation and once again saves climbing in that location.
Repeat, preferably with more paranoia the next time.
Occupy those pebbles...
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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Not good to leave people with just their imagination.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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(coz,
Was JT ever in jeopardy of being closed to climbing????
TheTool )
Transparency is what is needed. As stated, 'sweeping it under the rug" is only compounding the issues. I have no doubt that certain area's in the "Park" can and will be put "off limits" to protect the environment.
Taking a dump on the top of Headstone.....still trying to understand the idiocy of this act...I have participated in graffiti removal projects( AAC/SCMA/NPS), most notable at the "Patagonia Pile" formation.
I will be helping again, replanting vegetation near Hidden Valley later this month as well. I wish to continue to climb here without the red tape associated with the repercussions of insensitive and stupid acts of vandalism. I honestly believe those responsible for such things should be identified and forced to participate in environmental projects, until a specific number of service hours have been have been "paid back" to the Park. Like picking up freeway trash to work off a traffic ticket.
The NPS is not to blame. "WE" are. The NPS is going to do what they deem best for JT. We, through our collective "good behavior" and diligence, can help mold these policies, so as not to be too restrictive to climbers and climbing.
TY
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 13, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Scott has a legitimate point - sometimes problems need to be discussed and resolved in private. With 20 or so years of access-related work up here, I'd say rarely, but sometimes.
I'd distinguish betweeen confidentiality for convenience - not really a good reason - and to protect the legitimate interests of the parties, and lead to a better result. The latter is sometimes OK, although again, if you want democratic buy-in by the people you purport to represent, at some point there has to be openness.
At the same time, as your founders and others often observed, sunshine is usually the best disinfectant. If any issue involves changing behaviours, by definition it needs to be out in the open.
I hope that climbers never descend to the depths of the ATV, hunter, snowmobile, birder and some other users, of pretending that we don't have impacts that need to be managed.
As for deleting the thread - well, that's Bernadette's choice. She clearly had reasons for posting, and it sounds like good reasons. Whether or not we thought the foolish behaviour of (I hope) a few should be public, doesn't really matter.
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BDoog
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Mar 13, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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What next? Amateur cremations beneath Cap Rock?
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 13, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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Tony, great post!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 13, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
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This post reminds me of TMJesse asking on Supertopo all the climbers to stop trimming any tree branches that were across the trails. He explains that trimming a twig here or there can add up to quite a bit and is in fact ILLEGAL.
Hundreds of slanderous acrimonious posts by climbers claiming to support either the environment or the twig clippers and someone even outs a couple of people saying she knew who had a camp file in an illegal fire ring....on and on it went.
In what must be in the top 10 worst cases of bad timing as the online shitstorm rages the newspapers print a story that the NPS Rangers would soon be cutting down an estimated 1000 trees to improve the views for the tourists.
ROTFLMOA!
ps, agree with Cos, person to person or not at all.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 13, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Since I first started climbing out at Josh in 1971, the population has expanded in both directions: the top end folk have kept getting better while the noob population has gotten every more frightened, lightweight and disconnected from any sense of climbing history and values.
On one hand we have visitors free soloing up a storm and flashing the testpieces in no time, while a precious few hackers get to chipping, and generally trash the place. It may be that those causing the problem simply don't know any better, having no association to the past. If it's the case that the harm is being done by people in the know, who are simply acting like idiots and poltroons, then it's time to get rope and look for a tall tree.
JL
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 13, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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The talk about "discussing this off line" was obviously NOT what the OP had in mind, eh?
The proverbial "cat is out of the bag" now, and what Locker has stated is the case with many of us here. We all DO give a schitt about what's happened to Joshua Tree, and many of us can become quite verbal about these things.
If Bernadette were NOT sending a message, then I don't really understand the reason behind it.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 13, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
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I remember years ago there were some French guys bouldering and caking every stupid little edge with tons of rosin powder.
These particular wankers couldn't boulder worth the sh!t to begin with.
It was obscene the amount of rosin they were smearing into the edges screwing up the whole place.
I caught up with these guys one day and told them to knock off this rosin sh!t as it's not needed nor wanted because of the damage it was causing.
The stuff lasted years and made the holds slick as sh!t.
They told me to fuk off.
I came back a few minutes later with several people and we verbally laid it into them and they stopped.
Thus a thread like this is important because the word will get out to offenders .....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 13, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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Note on the C4 Bulletin board bitd;
"Stop using rosin on the boulder circuit, or you will be encircled in violence!
Especially the french!"
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 13, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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...If it's the case that the harm is being done by people in the know, who are simply acting like idiots and poltroons, then it's time to get rope and look for a tall tree...
JL
I suspect that is also an unauthorized use of Joshua Trees.
Curt
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 13, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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Yes- it is indeed a violation to climb the Joshua trees BTW
JL: ...the top end folk have kept getting better while the noob population has gotten every more frightened, lightweight and disconnected from any sense of climbing history and values.
Oy- that quote reminded me of a conversation overheard just this last weekend (not at JT). Some loud-mouthed girl talked out her ass endlessly to her group for close to an hour. I was pretty annoyed and I am not easily annoyed.
At one point she said something to the effect of: "it's stupid they don't just rap bolt things and make them safe... this isn't like the old days where people had to do all that scary stuff" All but 1 in her posse seemed to agree. *(head palm)*
^^^The poster children for that "frightened lightweight disconnection" that John speaks about. They can clip their way up 5.12-hard so they think they are entitled to alter the entire climbing universe, to make it more convenient for their send.
No sense of history or values indeed.
I don't know what went down out at JT that set Bernadette off. Clearly it was something obvious and unacceptable. I'm happy to hear some locals took steps to rectify. I personally love doing restoration work and wish I lived closer.
There's 1000's of routes out there to choose from that required little to no cleaning, chipping or gardening. I'm happy to spend the rest of my climbing life exploring them.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Mar 14, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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Is it the same guys who put the bolt back on Double Cross?
That entry move is unsafe and scary with out a bolt there.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Mar 14, 2012 - 02:28am PT
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Someday all the bolts on all those old classics will fall right off after we have been dead and gone for years, and then a few years later all the retro-bolts will fall off too.
The world is most DEF ending.
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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The area of concern is under investigation. When the investigation is complete, I will be permitted to share more details. Thank you all for the discussion and especially to those who facilitated it.
If my OP came off as threatening, I apologize. When I heard of the damage - at this particular place - I was affected on a personal level. Your posts show that I am not the only one who feels passionate about keeping JT wild. I feel fortunate to be in a position to communicate with all interested parties.
Bytheway, Joshua Tree National Park has not counted bolts since Eric Murdoch's study in 2004.
http://www.metla.fi/julkaisut/workingpapers/2004/mwp002-18.pdf
Thank you Khanom for advertising the service project on March 24. We'll be planting about 200 native plants along the swath of old road near the Old Woman and Intersection Rock; as well as, delineating an access trail. The scar can easily be seen from the top of Double Cross, careful on the approach to that -- the bodies are really piling up.
Friends of Josh, AAC, and Threshhold Climbing Gym are among the volunteers signed up for the project. Saturday evening, Damon Corso is giving a slideshow in Joshua Tree proper -- this event is open for everyone, even if you don't have a chance to get your hands dirty during the day.
Be well,
Bernadette Regan
Climber
JT Climbing Ranger
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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thanks to bernadette for the follow-up post. doesn't sound like they're about to close the park to climbing.
and thanks to largo and maid skippian for helping to make the point i was trying to make. there's a generation gap in climbing. there are lots who are scared to death of a trad rack. get out there and engage the youngstas.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 14, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Bernadette-
If I were not a climber, I would still feel protective of all the rest of the unique environment of the High Desert in addition to the rocks. I really have a special place in my heart for Joshua Tree.
But as a very trad climber, I'm personally offended by those defacing the rocks by chipping, aggressive brushing, gardening, and making a general mess of things. As one ages, the appeal of the high Alpine routes tends to fade along with a general decline in one's physical abilities. Fortunately Joshua Tree lengthens one's active climbng lifespan significantly. Does it bother me that I can no longer send a 5.10d? Yes, it does, but it also doesn't stop me from participating in the activity.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Mar 14, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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Tony Bird: this is off the direct topic, but totally spot on:
"there's a generation gap in climbing. there are lots who are scared to death of a trad rack. get out there and engage the youngsters."
This is probably the key issue for the future of climbing as we know it. It's worthy of it's own thread. Well said.
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