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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Tradmanclimbs,
Your name says you climb, not write about its parameters on interwebs. Be proud.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Traddude, "trad climbing" can be aspirational and can add game to the activity. I'm glad you can climb harder by shifting your methods as have I many times, but you can choose to play the game differently when ever you want.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Kind of funny how the gunks keep coming up as an example of pure trad climbing when in fact they are riddled with convience bolts...
when I was climbing in the 'Gunks, 1980-1995, I don't recall any bolts...
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Ed, I know of one that will register...
... Arrow!
Can't wait I am going to be there in a few weeks!!!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The claim that the Gunks are "riddled with convenience bolts" is exaggerated.
The Preserve has indeed placed a number of bolted rap anchors in order to eliminate unsightly tangles of rap slings. In a number of cases, I think these rap anchors are ill-advised, as they create two-way traffic on popular routes. If Tradman wants to criticize these bolted rap anchors, I'd say he has a point, but descent anchors placed by the landowner don't exactly count against the "trad score" of the crag.
Here is some more relevant information. In the Trapps, with about 500 climbs, there are fewer than ten protection bolts (I can think of eight). In the Near Trapps, with nearly 300 routes, there is, I think, one protection bolt. At Millbrook, with about 100 climbs (three-quarters of which are 5.10 or harder), there are no bolts (and no more than a handful of fixed pitons). All told, for something approaching 1000 climbs on the three main cliffs, there may be twelve bolts, none of which are contemporary, a touch more than one protection bolt for every 100 climbs.
Can't wait I am going to be there in a few weeks!!!
PM me if you're looking for a (elderly, somewhat broke-down, but knowledgeable) partner.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I am simply responding to earlier posts declareing that convience bolts are never acceptable. Of course the gunks are trad climbing yet by your rules they are disqualifyed due to convience bolts. Personaly I hate tat on trees and feel that bolts are cleaner and less impact for rap stations. try that in north Conway and they will get chopped in days unless the bolts are placed by George Hurly which brings up annother of the reasons i dislike so called trad purests. The ethics are enforced by who you are more than by how you actually climb.
It really is a shame though how they bolted the Gunks. They outlawed bolts on new routes but retro bolted belays to existing climbs. The added rap stations completly changed the charecter of how the climbs are done. In several cases they even turned multi pitch classics into single pitch trad/sport cragging routs where the norm is for one person to lead the 1st pitch and set a top rope for the posse to hang out and gang rope. A classic case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
It just seems to me that the modern version of trad is way too rigid and uptight. The vulgarians of old have turned into the appies and self appointed rock police. I am still a youngster at heart and have no place for rigid narrow minded rules.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Tarbuster could have narrowed the thread by asking, "What is Trad as seen from a Tradster?" With his open ended question we have legitimant respondents also answering, "What is Trad [from a Sport Climbers point of View]". Can I answer anything seriously?
Russ,
where did you learn to count? I have 143 posts here and no time for climbing.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Tradman,
The 'classic' trad definition of trad is narrow, rigid definition of style. A very small portion of the climbing population, even 'trad' population aspires to this style. If you accomplish it, you get a Stonemaster or Vulgarian card. The stars of this era topped out in skill and strength at about 5.11, yet it is considered the 'Golden Age' of trad.
If you don't care about the card or the style, then go climbing. Try hard, hangdog, clip chain belays, whatever. But remember, whatever anyone does these days to advance in skill or physical ability, this will never be the Golden Age.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Would the Vulgarians have embraced such a rigid rule based style of climbing?
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Paco
Trad climber
Montana
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I brought up the Gunks as an example, not because of the routes (most of which you can't rap from the top, and are void of gear except for fixed pins), but because of the sense of clean style that emanates from the place and the people there. The point that seems to be constantly made by climbers there, amateurs, weekend-goers, rock bums, and old farts alike, isn't that you have to reach a certain standard of 'trad'... but that you at least have to try. One of the few places I've been where it's still commonplace to lower off after a fall and hand the rope to the next climber. It's still a crag, with relatively short, and often sporty routes, whatever that means, but the consciousness of style, and the desire to strive for more purity, whilst having fun, still remains intact among the climbers there.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Ugh. Tradman strikes again. I really did want to get out of this thread.
I am simply responding to earlier posts declareing [sic] that convience [sic] bolts are never acceptable.
No, you are said that the Gunks is "riddled" with them. You never said one word about whether or not such bolts are or not acceptable, and later in your quote you suggest that they are unacceptable, at least to you.
Of course the gunks are trad climbing yet by your rules they are disqualifyed [sic] due to convience [sic] bolts.
My "rules?" What exactly are these rules? Can you summarize them? You have various straw-man bees in your bonnet, most of which you have made up so that you can react to them in outrage.
It really is a shame though how they bolted the Gunks. They outlawed bolts on new routes but retro bolted belays to existing climbs. The added rap stations completly [sic] changed the charecter [sic] of how the climbs are done. In several cases they even turned multi pitch classics into single pitch trad/sport cragging routs [sic] where the norm is for one person to lead the 1st pitch and set a top rope for the posse to hang out and gang rope. A classic case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
I agree with most of this. (But belays per se were not bolted, only rap stations---but of course some of those rap stations are also belays.) The sad fact is that climbers themselves were responsible for most, if not all, of the unfortunate changes, and the Preserve simply intervened and transformed the existing rap installations to bolted ones. The only way to have prevented this would have been for the community to embrace or the Preserve to enact some "rigid narrow-minded rules" banning the installation of rap anchors.
It just seems to me that the modern version of trad is way too rigid and uptight.
Modern version? You can't even say what you mean. The modern version of trad includes things like installing the gear with aid and then redpointing the route just like a sport climb.
The vulgarians of old have turned into the appies and self-appointed rock police.
This is another in the long string of clueless quotes. None of the Vulgarians of old are involved in this discussion. Most of them are not even involved in climbing any more. I'm the only "associate Vulgarian" who has had anything to say about the issues, and, unlike the Appies, I have never stopped anyone from doing anything and have never even said a word to anyone at the cliffs about something they were doing.
I am still a youngster at heart and have no place for rigid narrow minded rules.
What's your position again on the convenience anchors that ruined the Gunks? What's your position on chipping holds? What's your position on chopping unnecessary or inappropriate bolts?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Here's the problem with your perspective, Patrick. First, when Higgins penned Tricksters and Traditionalists, top climbers were climbing trad style well into the 5.13 range, a respectable level even today, 30 years later. Cosmic Debris in Yosemite was done trad style in 1980. And the tone of your statement implies that those climbers were not nearly as fit or skilled as those today climbing what you consider to be trad. Your earlier post indicates that the top level of that era shouldn't even be called trad climbing these days, but rather adventure climbing because it didn't require the physicality of today's trad climbing.
So If Cosmic Debris was put up in 'trad style', I assume Bill Price lowered each time he fell. Considering this was very cutting edge for the time, how many times did he hang? My understanding of Classic Trad is that each time you hang you get a punch out of the Stonemaster punch card and it eventually goes from Classic Trad Style to Spoorto Hangdog Lycra Weenie. I would be curious where that line is, and if and when it was crossed.
And by this logic, the Classiest Classic Trad ascent was done by Honnold because he did not fall and didn't even use a rope. So, is free soling and highball bouldering the ultimate in Classic Trad?
If so, then NOW is the Golden Age.
Ironically, Honnold also bolts on rappel and even does the dreaded sport climbing.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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And you not only want to call a style of climbing that ignores those principles trad climbing, you want to take the name of the traditional style of freeclimbing, use it for what you think is trad climbing, and rename the original style adventure climbing so it sounds like a walk in the park.
It isn't me, the cat is out of the bag and has been for 20 years. Go ask any 'gear climber' what they call themselves, as Tar has been, and the answer will be "Trad" while checking gear recommendations on MP and clipping chain belay anchors.
Because Trad now means not sport, but doesn't mean Classic Trad.
I don't make the rules on what disciplines are called, and I could care less personally. Language is virus.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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The only reason climbers back then weren't climbing a full number grade harder or better, is that they adhered to the principles of trad style, even when climbing at the highest level of the day.
...and there is also shoe technology and rubber quality, gear quality and ranges, training techniques including bouldering and gym climbing that top Trad climbers use today.
I am in no way saying that was done wasn't in a sincere style, but that style was doomed for an end because to do harder moves you have to hang and keep trying the move until you get it.
Poor style? Perhaps, but history has shown that the vast majority of climbers, even 'Trads', want to do more and harder stuff, not have a vague style badge.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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...and I thought we were going to hug...
these style and ethic debates have been going on for a very long time, some of them resolvable, some not.
I put up an overly long piece above with absolutely no impact. The main point being: we climb for entirely selfish reasons, and we usually justify our actions to support our selfish aims.
In some instances, we think about the immediate future, often because of a sense of delayed-selfishness known as "our legacy." The time period for this lasts, at most, our lifetime, or until we don't much care. How this works is that if we use some "trickster" tactic to get up a climb, we'd like it to be necessary to do so for any climber afterward.
Climbers are better and stronger now... great... yet somehow old test pieces don't get done, declared "unaesthetic," "viciously sandbagged" or "intentionally dangerous." In the Valley this can include routes at the 5.9 grade (WHT?! ask Werner, you can see him clowning around on one in a famous picture).
Climbers climb more, have access to better training facilities and information, better gear, and way better description of the routes, including the ability to interrogate the crap out of anyone who's done them and are willing to talk about it (which is almost everyone).
"Trad" is an idealized style... even Trads don't always climb Trad... idealized styles have a purpose; they at least get our selfishness to consider the opinion of some group of us, and maybe harness our selfish behavior in more positive manner.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nothing personal RG I am just speaking rehtoricaly. and the Your Rules line comes from the collectiv theme not you personaly. when I bring up the vulgarians in that context it is my understanding that in that era the Appies tried to make a bunch of rules and the Vulgarians rebelled against them. In this era it seems to me at least in the NH/Vermont area that when we have a staunch vocal trad purest conversation it is focused on a bunch of black and white rules with threats of chisels and beatdowns. It was my understanding that the Appies had a bunch of uptight black and white rules while the Vulgarians were the free spirits and better climbers..
I am generaly against any retro bolting that changes the way a route is climbed or changes the charecter of that route. It certainly seemed to me that the rap stations at the gunks did exactly that. I am usually ok with replaceing fixed pins with bolts if they are critical pieces and not protected to the same degree with gear. Example is a well driven LA on the FA is as bomber as a bolt yet a #4 stopper in a flared pin scar is not nearly the same degree of protection. Often i do this to my own routs simply because pins are so expensive and I may need them for annother GU project. Chipping no, agressive cleaning yes.
Allowing my partner or myself to untie and pull the rope on a multi pitch climb because of a fall or hang? Never unless it is an FFA attempt. haveing someone tell me how i am supposed to climb? No! rap bolting a new climb that is not a squeeze job or an obvious trad line yes. Bolting an obvious gear line NO. retro bolting a climb that I free soloed on the FA yes. It lets beginners have a nice training climb and I can still solo it whenever i want. adding bolts or moveing bolts on my own climbs after the FA to make them climb better. Hell yes! hoodwinking sport climbers into belaying me on ground up FA's durring black fly season? hell yeah;)
So yes I do have a bunch of my own rules yet they can be flexable depending on the situation.. seems like the staunch tradder is not flexable and has more in common with the Appies of old than the they would like to admit;)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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What Kevin and Ed said!!
And, for everyone that wants to change the rules to their liking - you're not playing the trad game anymore. You can climb any game you want, but placing gear and using sport climbing tactics is not trad style climbing. The people, like Kevin, for instance, who originally made up and played the game get to write the rules. Sheesh!
I don't always play the trad game, but I'll make sure to be clear about the style I use when asked about it. The trad game is for me, the most gratifying rock climbing game I play, but that's just personal preference; a matter of taste. It inspires me more deeply. When Ray Jardine did Crimson Cringe, that was cool. When John Bachar walked up to it and onsighted it with passive gear, that was art!
It's lying and cheating to play some other game and claim you're playing the trad game. Play the trad game or play another game, but quit whining about the rules of the trad game not being the rules you want to play by!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The stars of this era topped out in skill and strength at about 5.11, yet it is considered the 'Golden Age' of trad.
Actually, the "Golden Age" as I understand it began with 5.11 in the late sixties, just a bit before nuts were introduced and well before cams, and closed with the beginnings of 5.13. During that period in the Gunks, about fifty 5.12's were done as well as a host of 5.11's, many of them without cams. Some of these routes were bold as well as hard and are awaiting second ascents twenty years later. My guess is that eventually they'll be head-pointed rather than led ground-up.
I'd say the modern era began in the Gunks with the FFA of Twilight Zone. Since it involved some sort of "hold modification," I think it marks the transition to the modern era of the sport.
A number of comments suggest that trad is a thing of the past and that modern young climbers aren't doing it and don't even know what it is. Here's a little video of Brian Kim making the second ascent (twenty years after the first!) of the Cybernetic Wall, 5.13d, in the Gunks. I'm told he worked it ground up, the old-fashioned way. You'll note he's placing gear while climbing, so it isn't a "sport-gear redpoint." I mention this because part of the argument, at least part of the argument I've been advancing, is that there are young climbers who want to climb newer harder things without having them bolted or pre-protected and those with drills who think they speak for everyone are primarily robbing this generation of its opportunities, rather than offending a previous generation of has-beens.
http://vimeo.com/4534537#
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oops, sorry Russ, there's more than one Twilight Zone in the world, as it turns out. I was referring, in all of my post, to that part of the Golden Age of trad climbing that transpired in the Gunks.
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