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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Weschrist
You are as bad as the rightwing Christian who proselytics on the Bible and creationism. There is a middle ground, and for your information, everything evolution oriented you speak of is based on theory, and theory only. No one really know what caused man to appear. There is no missing link, there is no species jumping phylum. Things evolve and change, but there is nothing to show anywhere in the fossil record that we evolved from apes or other. A chart pieced togather by someone who wants to make a statement is hardly grounds for basing your beliefs on.
So a true intellectual keeps a open mind, and admits when they don't know, unlike you who purports to know, when as Werner would say, "You know nothing!"
Scientists like to make sensationalist statements becasue it gains them funding from one group or another, just like politicians. If you feel the compulsion to hook your bandwagon to one or another, so be it. But don't slander those who have no such need.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Whatever blows your dress up dude.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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For what it's worth, the bible says...."for as much as it lieth in you be at peace with all men." It also says, "speak truth in love mixed with grace."
I agree with Wes, don't want homosexual marriage, abortion etc. don't have one. Modeling life is much more important than talking a life.
Still don't get all the me/they...us/them stuff. What's wrong with sharing ideas and listening to others thoughts and ideas.
Peace and Joy on a beautiful Sunday.....as much as possible a jesus follower, lynnie
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan-
Good point about animal consciousness. Hence the term in some religions of "sentient beings".
I'm not entirely clear about this but I think the kind of consciousness you are describing, the one that is keenly aware of time in the sense of future expectations, is our ordinary waking consciousness whereas the realm of spiritual consciousness is characterized by an absence of the sense of time. The question I'm wrestling with at the moment, is whether all consciousness, ordinary and extraordinary, is a function of mental processes taking place only within the physical brain.
Recently, neurosurgeons have found for example, that stimulating a particular area of the brain causes one to have a near death experience, but does this mean that all such experiences come from the brain or rather, that a certain configuration of chemicals and neurons is necessary for certain experiences of the non physical dimension to make themselves known and that electrical stimulation of that region produces a false replica of the true non physical experience? As you say, these sorts of questions end as discussions of philosophy always do with scientists generally leaning in one direction and spiritual/artistic types generally leaning in the other.
Weschrist-
It seems to me what both scientists and those interested in spiritual experiences should collaborate on for the near future anyway, are further studies of the interface between brain electricity and chemistry and the vast literature on spiritual experiences such as the one on belief.net that you refer to. Probably the new religious paradigm for Homo sapiens should focus on the methodology for transforming the human mind down to the biochemical level rather than trying to solve the seemingly imponderable questions of external causation. Of course some eastern philosophies have been saying this all along.
What does seem clear from the research done so far at a much less subtle level, is that people who believe in an external causation are more optimistic, have fewer heart problems, heal faster, and live longer. Thus back to my original observation, that spirituality/ religion/ the search for meaning is a fundamental trait of human beings and contributes to our survival and welfare, the current fanatics and their violence not withstanding.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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" Jesus was gay, or at least bisexual"
With statements like this, I'm supposed to trust that all the studies I've seen summarized were wrong and your interpretation is right?
I'm not objecting by the way, to your statement on religious grounds, but on scientific ones. Whether Jesus was or was not gay doesn't detract one bit from his message. The issue is, how could you possibly know about the sexuality of a man who lived 2,000 years ago who never chose to talk or write about it ??? Now who's being unscientific ???
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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You know he wasn't married.
No wife in the world would let a guy wander around with twelve of his pals for a weekend, let alone for years on end.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Good quip and I don't think you meant it this way but,
Just because a man or woman isn't married doesn't mean they're gay !
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Chaz, thanks for my theraputic laugh of the day.....hehehe
Jan, I sho know I'm not gay and I'm not married.....jess sayin' :D
Edit: all I can say is Lord, deliver me from my martini glass that comes up everytime I post. I'ts tough being a perfectionist procrastinator...what pic do I choose to replace and how to do it??????bwahahaha.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
With statements like
"Peter was the original capitalist pig doing whatever he could to sell what he had. Paul was his partner who never even met Jesus"
please explain to me how your position is any different than a blind religionist? You're just as prejudiced as they are but in the opposite direction.
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jstan
climber
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Jan:
It is now so long ago I can't remember the details but I suggested here that brain scans of persons in "spiritual experience" might elucidate that experience. As I remember it, I discovered this has actually received study. I doubt it will be carried to the point of stereotaxic probes but still something may be learned.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Weschrist, Dude and Friend.....yo say, "I am the off spring of Christian hate." DUDE, real Christian's ....Jesus followers are directed NOT to hate. You were the offspring of phony religious humans covering up their shortcomings instead of honestly dealing with them. imho, lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Wes, Paul did meet Jesus on the road to Damascus....It was a pretty huge Hello Dude, too. :D
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"No you moron, I call someone who thinks their believe in God is proof of God an idiot. I don't expect you to understand, you are an idiot"
Did you know in the Old Testament there are 300 Prophesy about the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled that prove He is the Christ, Son of God, of His first coming?
Also of His second coming there are 1845 in the Old, and 318 in the New Testament Prophesy yet to be fulfilled?
What father will give his son a snake when he asks for bread?
God did not leave us in the dark! The Bible is God's inspired word given to us. God's word never fails, it always comes true! In fact the Old Testament, the Prophet's Prophesy had to come true 100% of the time or he was not a Prophet.
Most animals walk after being born. Man is helpless for years, yet the baby thinks they are the center of everything. And we usually have to learn the hard way.
The Day of the Lord Will Come, 2 Peter 3:1-13
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished (Noah and the flood). But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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You can run but you can't hide! JESUS LOVES YOU!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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I don't know radical. I have listened and learned alot on this forum over the past 20 months. I have learned alot from wes. You can read books etc. but real human dialogue on a heart, mind, soul and brain level is also on the level of the most awesome author/book. jess thinkin', lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Wes says, "there are few followers of jesus and few of them attend church."
Key words, few attend. Read, read, read people who say they are Christians. Where in the New Testament does it say we need to "attend church" ? Actually some of jesus last words were, "Go Ye into all the world."
Jesus never took attendance, never built a building. His gig, "Come unto me ALL ye that labor (having a tough time dude, I'll help) and are heavy laden and I WILL give you help." That's the Dude lynnie has entrusted her life to and yo has Never let me down.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Of course you know lynnie loves yo riley dude. And miss yo. Hope to see you at the J Tree this fall. I am zoned that you are so fit now. A No Cal Dude, gave me a great book and lots of really great advice on diet and exercise and I hope to be toned in @ 3-6 months (if people stop dying on me, been a caregiver for awhile now.)
Peace Riles,
Lynnie
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