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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
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caughtinside-- My point is that when people get caught up in petty issues about what's sacred and what's not and who's rules should prevail, then the climbing community tends to suffer as a whole. There was a bit of an intended pun in my comments, I'm glad you got it (or, I think you did)! Anyways, I'm not going to pass stylistic judgment on anybody's route until I've climbed it. Sure, ground up, stance drilled, free routes make proud lines. But I think we've all climbed plenty of routes established in other styles that were pretty f*#kin' cool.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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So these guys climb 8 pitches of 12a and a 13 ground up, get stopped, and the resort to rapping in to make sure taking their line will go further, and that makes em some kind of criminals? Particularly since the hard climbing was already done? Make em responsible in my mind.
Doesn't seem like anybody here would have had a problem if they simply aided the first 8 pitches, drilled a ladder past the blank spot, and climbed mixed free and bolt ladders to the top. Would that have "really" been so much better and bolder than what happened?
The history of big wall climbing is not so pure and bright as some seem to recall here.
Somebody wrote
"No need for Bridwell et al to rap down the PO to know it would be intricate and hard from the ground up. He just did it. The various routes on the Porcelain Wall are less than obvious from the ground but no one felt it necessary to rap them first."
Yeah, because he knew that if the features ran out, he could just drill a bolt ladder until the feature allowed more heads (which, I might add is a rather unsustainable technique)
I'd argue that the PO is a lot less of a route today compared to when it went up compared with this route, which will be more or less the same for every party that comes to it in the future. I couldn't do the PO when it went up, but I could now. I'll never do this route.
The history of big wall climbing in Yosemite is full of guys looking at every feature with high powered telescopes, linking them with bolt ladders, and establishing fixed lines for hundreds of feet so they could eat and drink at the deli while getting their route started. All all the time hammering and aiding.
Is this route really so much worse than all that?
This seems like a bunch of pedophiles complaining about the evils of gay marriage. We accept our own ethical weaknesses because they are shared and attack the visionaries because their ethical weakness is ahead of it's time. Climbing has always been that way for sometimes better and sometimes worse.
I'm not hearing anything lower than what's been going on all along. Only different.
Peace
Karl
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marky
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:49pm PT
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thanks, Bush/Cheney!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:50pm PT
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From reading some of the posts above I guess climbing is just a sport and the moves and getting to the summit are everything?
Some folks here seen to merge aid climbing and free climbing a wall as the same thing?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:02am PT
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wow-
i just read this whole thread, and i am SO PISSED OFF by it!
or by what i found in it
way up thread, plastic man wrote:
"I don't care what someone believes in or practices (bestiality, bathhouse glory holes, veganism, smoking a pipe, Jehovah's Witness, chewing tobacco, Branch Davidian, Republican, etc.)"
dood-
why do vegans get lumped in w/ the rest of that rif-raff?
come on pal, that's just not right!
=)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:13am PT
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stevep - I know what you're saying too. In my messed up opinion, any climber that has enough ability to do a first ascent on a face of that scale is not going to drill a huge bolt ladder (unless they had to summit for life or death reasons).
When you're on-sight, ground up, on-the-lead, on a face climb, and can't tell where to go to summit, after a few aid bolts - you are going to realize that you're not free climbing anymore. If you are really into free climbing, and you want to be a vertical Bruce Lee, you won't drill a massive bolt ladder. You will go for it or come back another day when you're the shiznit.
If you never achieve Shiznit staus, that's cool too. Big respect for trying.
At least you went for it.
-jb
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john hansen
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:17am PT
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From an early AAJ by Ament
On our last day in Toulumne, Bob Kamps and I attempted what
looked like the “a&time” route in the Meadows--the very center of
Fairview’s west face. Starting below a conspicuous roof and a series of
small arches, we hoped to climb a steep crack system to the summit bowl.
After four full pitches of fantastic climbing on %akes and knobs, we
encountered an utterly blank 85” headwall. Utterly blank? As unlikely
as this seems for Toulumne, the wall would simply not go free. We had
already used four bolts to protect 5.9 and 5.10 climbing immediately
below, would four or five aid bolts now be appropriate? We pondered
the situation and finally decided to go down. Here was a route more
resistant than any we had previously encountered. Once on the ground, we
discussed the free climbing tradition being established in Toulumne and
speculated that perhaps someday the headwall wo& go free. Then, to the
car. Bob wondered if he had lost his camera, whether he would then be
camera-shy. I ignored him and suggested we call our half-a-route The
Abortion. He suggested we go home.
I think this later became the "Fairest of them All"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:18am PT
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Well, if the route is now 'visionary and 'ahead-of-its-time' maybe this discussion should be deferred until its time arrives and the vision of rap bolting routes in the Valley is a common one.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:27am PT
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ec: do you believe what you wrote?
Stone Masher guide came out years ago and there are tons of new routes still to be done all over the south, as well as the north.
Stolen dreams?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:34am PT
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On sight flash " Southern Belle"?
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:16am PT
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Half Dome is a stone fox.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:24am PT
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Matt... sorry. Guess I just needed to offend as many as possible in one brief thought. Next time I'll write the first half of the sentence then jump to the end and write the rest of the sentence from the end backwards.
I knew this would go way past 100 posts.
Next prediction: This thread will be in Chris' "best of" next month.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:37am PT
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Karl...nice post. You are wasting your time and effort trying to be logical...the jury is already in on this with most of these folks.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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John Hansen's posted a description from the AAJ about a route attempted by Ament and Kamps which was stopped by a 85' blank headwall. He speculated that this route later became "Fairest of All".
I believe this is actually a route that is just left of Piece de Resistance. The headwall was attempted by Jeff Vance and Brian Cox in the early 80's. A few years later, John Bachar gave Jeff a call and asked if he could try the project. John was also unsuccessful. A few years ago, the headwall was rap-bolted and went at 5.12+. Now if I could just remember the FA info(Clint, help me out oh wise one)......
Bruce
ps - About the major issue being discussed here. Does the end justify the means making rap bolting of HD OK? Not in my book. If you don't succeed, better luck next time!
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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Scott,
I meant 'that' dream of the route in question.
And don't let on about unfinished business in the Sierra, as we both have some unfinished business. LOL. At least I'll spend enough time and effort to watch the sun & shadows pass to see what most likely will be out there. Sometimes its a gamble. I had to scope Tehipite a few times. The headwall was like looking at the Shield. In some parts of the day the wall looks blank, then when the sun is just right...If the cracks weren't there we would have had to bail. We lucked out.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:13am PT
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John Hansen and Bruce -
The quote is from Tom Higgins' (not Pat Ament's) article in the 1969 AAJ. It is on Tom's site (see the last page):
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=20&limit=1&limitstart=0
The obvious implication is that the route described was later done as "Piece de Resistance", and aid was used by Vern Clevenger to place one of the bolts. Higgins was of course disappointed by this change in ethics/style for Tuolumne climbing, just read his intro to the Tuolumne guidebook.
Bruce, I'm not sure what route Jeff + Brian tried. Maybe you are thinking of Retrospective? (that headwall is 5.11+ on the topo, I don't know if it was rap bolted or not - ask Mike Schaefer). Probably you should ask Jeff or Brian. The headwall on Retrospective starts just right of where Plastic Exploding Inevitable cuts left after the big right facing corner ends.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:33am PT
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The "Stolen Dreams" concept has been around for many years in climbing and it's applications are worth debating in climbing. Where do you suggest we draw the line?
Should be blame Klaus for climbing "Jesus built my Hotrod" when it could have been saved for somebody who could have freeclimbed it without as much stone damage?
If we had waited until cleaner aid gear was invented, the shield headwall could have been spared it's total savaging.
Perhaps any hammered aid climbing isn't warranted as clean gear might arrive to let the stone remained perserved as is forever.
Perhaps ANY aid climbing is also stealing the dream of the climber who could make a ground up free ascent someday? We keep finding that free climbers keep making inroads in territory that was unimaginable years back.
Take the South Face of Half Dome even. If it had been left alone by Harding and everyone else, what could Caldwell walk up and do there today? A very different route i'm sure.
Asking everyone to lay off the stone in deference to future superheros is like telling teenagers to save sex for marriage. There are a few examples of it happening but...
Somebody wrote:
"Must all routes "go somewhere?" Are the Geek Tower routes less than perfect since they do not finish "at the top?"
Actually, to be honest, the Geek Tower's routes would get climbed 500%+ more if they went to the top, so I have to imagine they are "Less than Perfect according to climbers voting with their feet. It's worth noting in this ethical debate that lionizes the noble kings of the past that Bridwell intentionally pinned out a crack on Geek Towers Freestone so that it would go free.
Climbers are a lot like humans. Once you get beneath the surface, we have flaws and strengths, different ideas of right and wrong, and different circumstances cause us to apply those ideas in weird ways.
Peace
Karl
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:41am PT
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Great post Karl. It's about time constructive scarring got mentioned. Also, at one point, a route was considered to have gone free even when bolts were placed from hooks. I don't think half the heroes mentioned on this thread have been portrayed in the true light of their so called "ethics."
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:01am PT
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le bruce,
Thanks for the pictures!
Nice seeing it from a different perspective.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:08am PT
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Yes thanks for those pictures!
What an impressive jewel of the Sierra that is.
Having never seen it from those angles it is all the more incredible.
Cheers,
DD
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