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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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All this bullshit about no hangdogging is just that. Bullshit! If you are never takeing a hang you simply are not climbing hard enough. If no hangdogging is as hard and fast of a rule for trad as you guys seem to make it out to be then trad is some wimpy ass under achieveing BS. Too many f*#king rules and way too inflated of an opinion about how cool you are for climbing in a certain way..
I am way over my screen name and would change it in a heartbeat if i could do so and lock the old name. when someone calls themselfs a trad climber these days the fist image that pops into my mind is overweight bumbly epicing on a 5.6. the same kind of folks who rope up for shoestring gully and spout off about how iresponsible soloists are. The second image i get is some young punk kid who haveing just read a book about Henry Barber goes on a crusade, appoints himself to be the bolt police, chops bolts that have been there longer than he has been alive and tries to tell us all how to climb. (a few years later same kid is rap bolting sport climbs) The 3rd visual I get is grumpy old man going off about how bad assed we were BINTD
So NO. I am Not a Trad climber anymore. I got over that long ago. I am a Climber. I am just as happy clipping bolts as I am stuffing in gear, drilling on lead, climbing steep ice, pounding pins, standing in aiders, scrambleing up a mountain or free soloing. Any day outdoors climbing is a good day.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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tradmanclimbs,
YOU HAVE DESCRIBED AN ESSENCE EXPERIENCE
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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tradmanclimbs
yes Henry was one big PUSSY. He was enthralled with Dresden and wanted me to be the bolt police of the Black Hills Needles. I told Henry I don't do favors for women. As you will note I watched a fellow put a bolt in on his Super Pin
But, never responded to Henry's order (telephone call) to chop it.
Kind of, "I am not your agent dude."
Yes, by then I was sick of California rules.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Warbler,
you have left some out. There will always some who act as the TRAD POLICE.
I think it was Bel Boa that claimed all he could see for Sprain or Portugal back in the 15 th century. Some modern TRAD Bel Boas try to do the same with what climbing turf is left in the name of the great California Conquistadors. But Sport outguns 'em.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Dingus, Henry Barber is a pussy? I think your abrasive posts have crossed into a realm that smacks of dementia driven rambling. You have continually granstanded here rather than choosing to engage in reasonable discourse and, though I can't speak for others here, it seems boorish to me.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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And, apparently, a Californian....
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Mark,
I know Henry is your trad hero.
A Pussy is one who tries to get you to do favors in return for some form of friendship. You could have learned this from your days of courting.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jaybro,
yes a Californian and a Pussy. I see you implied ...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Mark,
yes, I am a Stand Up Male and do say what I believe. I am not going to adjust my way of writing because you are a SNAG.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I guess I forgot that Boston was in California
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Dingus, Am I to understand that I'm a pussy when I ask a friend to do me a favor? WTF?!
And, I'll defend your right to say what you want to say (I am libertarian by nature), even if I absolutely believe you are exercising that right to say things that are selfish, egotistical, obsessive, abrasive, illogical, unnecessarily provocative, and ill-mannered.
Kevin, I'll go with that!
And, as for what is trad? Roy built the framing, Kevin sawed the board and laid it down and lined it up, and Russ nailed it down! The definition is done.
That is not to diminish the contributions of Rich (rgold), Ed, wstmrnclmr, and a number of others standing around with their beers and making useful observations and suggestions about the project.
Werner may have nailed the question "Why is trad!"
I don't believe I'd ever really embrace sport and gym climbing in general.
It has nothing to do with trad, bolts, hang dogging, plastic or any that sh!t.
It's because doesn't go anywhere for me.
Just monkeying around on moves and yo-yoing around doesn't interests me at all.
I'd rather do something else in life if that's all there is.
I'd rather sit in a corn field in Kansas or watch a river float by than waste my life yo-yoing some stupid gymnastic moves .....
Some thoughts on the bolting issue around trad (IMHO ;-)):
If you free climb up to a stance from which you driil that bolt by hand, even if that stance is on a hook, it's trad.
When you move on to the next stance so the bolt you are drilling is for safety rather than comfort, it's trad.
When you make a point of building a complicated anchor at the belay stance, rather than putting in "convenience bolts," it's trad.
(Please! Convenience bolts are not a trad value, style, or ethic! Sheesh!)
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Patrick.....I think narcissism, like all other human traits occurs in most human endeavors and climbing in not exempt regardless of style. I appreciate all forms of climbing and it seems from other threads that it's been established that indeed no one owns the rock but that the FA party has say in what happens to their route/s regardless of style. This appears to be the only "rule" most in the climbing community support, regardless of the style of the climb.
And I don't think the intent of the OP was meant to enforce anything but meerly a good natured excersise to try and define a style of climbing that existed in the past and is echoed by what remains of that style on rock. I don't think anyone is telling someone else how they have to climb. This thread has been amazingly popular for some reason. Maybe it's because we're all looking for some clarity amidst the chaos caused by an ever growing population of climbers and to preserve something lest it gets lost in the mire, regardless of what the content of the history is.
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Paco
Trad climber
Montana
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Patrick Compton...
Clothes go out of style.
Style does not go out of style.
Maybe spend some time at the Gunks. With a set of nuts. I'd sentence you to hemp-rope purgatory as well, but while nuts catch falls just as well as bolts do, hemp doesn't quite stretch like the 70m, bicolor sweetwater you've got.
Edit:
Though I must agree, buying a plane ticket to chop a bolt on a route you probably haven't climbed since the FA seems a little overboard...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Style does not go out of style.
Right on, Paco!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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This type of 'trad' mentality is what has turned the Black Hills into a museum of the ego-driven narcissism of the days of yore.
I suppose Dingus might know better, but as far as I know the "old-school" climbs in Custer State Park have been and continue to be regularly ascended, so the "museum" claim is bogus. Moreover, for those who are not drawn by the challenges of trad climbing, the Rushmore area, which last time I checked is in the Black Hills, provides a big range of sport climbs. And then there is Spearfish Canyon and all the crags Dingus is developing. So by and large, the region seems to have adapted to the new genres without feeling the need to obliterate the old ones.
I don't really understand the heated negative reactions to a discussion about climbing styles. Personally, I couldn't care less what damn style you use to get up something, as long as you don't damage it or alter it in the process. (I am not, however, obliged to view your anything-goes ascent as an equivalent achievement to an ascent managed with more restraint. Can this really be why some folks have their undies in such a twist? If so, I'm impressed with the power of minority opinion to produce responses with no content beyond a proliferation of f-bombs.)
The real issue, in my opinion, is the pressure from the rap bolting end of the spectrum to make trad routes "safe" according to the norms of their genre without regard or respect for the existence of other styles in the climbing game. And to return to the quoted phrase, one of the arguments for either "improving" or flat-out appropriating trad terrain for rap-bolting is that said terrain is nothing more than some decaying monument to the egos of a bygone era, mistaking the fact that specialized sport climbers don't want to do the route in its natural state for the very different fact that no climbers want to do the route.
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Paco
Trad climber
Montana
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rgold, your wisdom is boundless.
My dear friend and climbing mentor (my father) almost never leaves a crag or mountain without wondering (aloud) whether or not he thinks climbing is an activity he wants to keep pursuing. It's not because he's burnt out, or because he doesn't think it's rewarding... it's because climbing is dangerous, and he has a lot to live for. I'm not a big thrill seeker myself, and I'll be the first to admit that the trust climbers have to place in gear, rock, and our own physical abilities scares me. But that's climbing. People wouldn't spend their lives continuing to use it as a method of self-discovery and fulfillment if it was without risk. If climbing were universally reduced to a completely 'safe sport,' where the only object was achieving higher difficulties, and pulling harder moves, I wouldn't climb. It'd be a shame to lose such a beautiful, artistic activity to a workout no more engaging than a treadmill.
So the Black Hills is a museum? Okay. Then don't ruin the exhibits by putting bolts through a Picasso that other people haven't had the pleasure to experience for themselves yet.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
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trad is wearing your underpants
on the outside of your outterpants
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Personally, I couldn't care less what damn style you use to get up something, as long as you don't damage it or alter it in the process.
Rgold, thank you! In complete agreement and have posted a congruent argument up thread.
The real issue, in my opinion, is the pressure from the rap bolting end of the spectrum to make trad routes "safe" according to the norms of their genre without regard or respect for the existence of other styles in the climbing game. And to return to the quoted phrase, one of the arguments for either "improving" or flat-out appropriating trad terrain for rap-bolting is that said terrain is nothing more than some decaying monument to the egos of a bygone era
Changing routes in this way is one of the higher expressions of unrestrained ego, in my estimation!
Paco, beautiful contemplation of the internally driven experiences to be derived from the trad style of climbing. Thank you.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Thanks rgold and Paco for keeping the ship afloat while the captain's of gallivanting. She almost ran aground.
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