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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 10:36am PT
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I think you answer your own question.
You've made your statement unambiguously. Thank you.
(Now pleeeeeeease get over it,)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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TiG - I thought it might be worth while to consider that the particular controversy we are debating in Ron's thread is a very old one. I suspect it was discussed even earlier than Smythe's publication.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - George Santayana
I don't know how to learn about history other than reading about it, or discussing it with people who have studied it... thus the articles and long quotes. I suspect that most people participating in the forum do not know about the past discussions, or that this topic has been around for a very long time... certainly in Smythe's case, the Forum was probably conducted in a bar with all of the advantages and disadvantages that venue provides.
Your comment doesn't surprise me.
Ron-I don't get paid to do any of this, and in fact, I should probably be working a bit harder on my paying job after hours to show what a dedicated employee I am, so this is probably taking bread off my table...
John - Somehow in all the years you have maintained a consistent image of climbing, a vision which provides a cynosure for yourself and other climbers. But interestingly, its fundamental precept is that one has to be willing to back off, that success is not a necessary outcome of an attempted ascent.
This is a point that is made in most of the primary opinions regarding the use of bolts. That climbing is not an activity where the outcome is a matter of "life or death," it doesn't matter if we make it to the top, send the pitch, summit; climbing is not a survival activity but an activity born out of our "leisure," an activity we choose to engage in for no particular reason with little direct value to society.
Why then is the expedient of getting to the top an overriding issue? As Smythe observed, anyone can with sufficient artifice. What is the point of that?
So bolts come into the picture because they provide safety to a passage that would otherwise have to be traversed, apparently unsafely. But we have had that debate before, in the guise of the morality of "free soloing" where a climber forsakes all aid and all insurance and must climb "as if their life depended on it," which it does... see the thread on Steph Davis...
If that is acceptable, than why wouldn't forgoing bolts also be acceptable? it is, but it cuts out the vast majority of climbers, it is elitist in that the climbers capable, physically and mentally, of pulling that sort of climbing off are few. And the numbers get smaller and smaller as the grade increases. As anyone knows who has done it, free soloing, or even running out a long distance, is a very different type of climbing.
For most crack climbing, I can get as much gear in as I want, technology has "advanced" to the point where I can even sew up wide cracks. I do not for one moment imagine that the feeling I get climbing the early 60s test pieces is remotely like going up there with a rack of pins. Now climbing is more physical, when you are way out from your last protection, climbing is much much more mental. Keeping it together to pull the moves you are physically able to pull is where it's at...
Now we can complain that safety of human life is an overriding concern, is the overriding concern, but that is bogus, for if it were true we would not choose to be out climbing. The very environment is risky, from actions far beyond our control. If you want safe, stay away from the hills... generations of humans have known this to be true. If you want to risk going in to the hills, then you should choose only to do those things which you are comfortable doing, no one requires you to be there, to climb.
It comes down to your own choice, to everyone's own choice. On a ground up First Ascent protection is put in as the climb unfolds, taking what the mountain gives in terms of protection. The line is made safe enough for the FA, who reports it. The FA is not responsible to make the climb safe for everyone, they cannot do that as they have no control over who chooses to attempt their line in the future. All they can do is climb the line, or if they are not capable, coming down and letting someone else do it.
Bolting the line brings the climb down to their ability, usually mental ability, often physical ability. It takes away the opportunity for the mountain to "turn us down." And that lessens the whole experience, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many much better climbers than I who have written about this over the decades.
Read those words, they are an important reminder of the fact that some of these "rules" are important and fundamental. What is climbing otherwise?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Ed,
history is a poor place to look for predictions of the future, paraphrased from Nassim Nicholas Taleb in The Black Swan.
We made too many wrong mistakes - Yogi Berra
The conditions of the times you mentioned have changed. There are more climbs and less unclimbed rock. Climbers have changed. Equipment has changed. Lycra is out.
The only thing that is still the same is that we do not know what tomorrow will bring.
(And maybe we still over-estimate our influence on the future.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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I love Yogi Bera-isms.
The point I was trying to make, albeit rudely (I apologize) is that there is no need to rehash the same tiring arguments.
What I am trying to get at here is that being able to make multiple statements is what democracy is about, but whether flaw or strength, what is the downside of side by side ethics?
If there is honesty in the "statement" made by the ascent why can't that stand on its own merits (or lack thereof)?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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TiG, I'm not trying to predict the future, I am trying to avoid making the mistakes of the past. Those are two different things. (And a way of thinking about climate change by the way).
Ron, while I am sure that these old arguments are tired to you, I get a sense that they are unknown to the vast majority of the STForum readers, even as there is a core of those readers who participated in some of the original discussions.
A FA does stand by its "statement," but there are a range of quality in those "statements" which put the FAs on unequal footing, that is, some are better than others. In the end it is you and the rock up there, and you do what you can. I think that what has always been part of the discussion is the question: why do you have to succeed?
Fact is you don't. But there are a million ways of redefining success... to make it a meaningless concept. Smythe hit on that point right away. I think it is important to remember it.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Ed, I understand.
My point is that a "mistake in the past" is not necessarily a mistake today. Attempting to build airplanes, looking back in history, seems to have been a silly mistake - up until the invention of the internal combustion engine and tubing for bicycles!
Funding fusion research (expecting to build commercial generation in the next 5 years) is clearly a mistake. We have repeated that "mistake" every year since the 60s. :-)
Yesterday's mistakes could be today's break-through. Viagra was not developed to solve ED!
Sorry, Ron. Enough off topic stuff from me.
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James
climber
Santa Cruz
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Pat,
It's on. June 2nd at the bridge. I'm gonna punch you in the face. Ha!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jody, you sound arrogant to me...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogant
Main Entry: ar·ro·gant
Pronunciation: \-gənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin arrogant-, arrogans, present participle of arrogare
Date: 14th century
1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner
2 : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance
synonyms see proud
— ar·ro·gant·ly adverb
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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We are what we repeatedly do.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Climbers have changed."
Yes, an ever greater percentage of the whole are risk-averse and expect risk to be manged for them.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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climbers have changed, but climbing has not... at least I recognize Smythe's characterization still, after 70 years...
a test of strength and skill in surmounting natural obstacles undertaken in accordance with traditional rules, and governed by the love of the thing for its own sake
If you are looking for an origin of the meaning of "trad" then you have probably found it...
Just what are "traditional rules?" You can find them in Smythe's essay. We shouldn't hide our deviations from "best-style" by redefining the sport, rather, we should own up to the choices we have made in the name of expediency that deviate from the pure form of the sport.
Just saying -
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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WWABD, WWAHD
Aaron Burr, Alexander Hamilton.
Just settle everything honorably, the traditional way.
:-)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 07:41pm PT
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I'm sick and tired of all this hand wringing. Nobody has said why we can't have two routes side by side with one being established in a manner that permits mortals to enjoy it while another nearby route could stand as a testament to boldness.
Each is its own statement.
Why can't we agree to disagree?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Hey Jody, are you bringing the Camero to Bridge Day™?
If ya can't beat 'em, might as well do some recruitin'...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ron, I'd think the question would be are you fine with folks putting up routes with very different styles and ethics next to your own routes.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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I personally believe in the ground up philosophy, but that is just my opinion and that is all it is.
Jody wrote "What would almighty Bachar do?" "who cares?"
Well we all should. If you believe in the ground up philosophy then John has been our spokesman- not afraid to say what he believes in. I thank him for that. If you are on the other side of the fence you should still care what he has had to say because it has affected climbing and the community around even if you don't agree with him. And Jody it sounds like you "do care" what Bachar has to say because you come across bitter. I don't know you it is just what I gather from your prior posts.
On another thread (half dome) soemeone stated that we should not continue trad values because we are so far behind the Europeans and how hard they are climbing. Makes it sound like we are just ego driven and worry about the number you are climbing instead of the experience. I personally climb for the experience not what I can spray.
Sounds like Sean Jones and Doug put a lot of thought into Growing Up and finally decided in doing it in the style in which it is now. First I am a father like Sean and there is nothing more important than providing for your children, but I have to say I do not believe that using the argument "this is how I feed my kids" makes everything acceptable. Sean a lot of people have said what a great family man you are and I don't doubt that for a moment, but don't throw them in to the mix to justify your climbing objectives.
What I have gathered from both perspectives is this;
The ground up community is very disturbed with this type of ascent and has spoken very passionately about it. The top down community seems to be OK with it. Here is a thought: tradsters have accepted that there will be rap bolted routes in certain areas that are SPORT CRAGS. They just choose not to climb at these areas. Why can't rap bolters do the same. If you want to do a route top down then go to an area that accepts this train of thought. Seems like tradsters have accepted rap bolting in certain areas why can't rap bolters do the same when it comes to trad areas, accept it for what it is and leave it alone.
Lastly $ money makes the world go round and we could bicker and argue against each other all day. But if you want to make a difference pro or con about ethics then write how you feel to the companies that sponsor climbers and tell them how you feel. I think that if we all wrote letters there would be more against rap bolting in trad areas then there would for it. I say this because ground up comments on this site seem to be much more passionate in there beliefs than the people that have been for it. I would write a letter but I own a climbing shop and I get to talk to these companies and their reps all the time, and there will be talk in Salt Lake this summer at OR in August.
Anyways these are just my opinions and that is all they are.
Take care
Dave
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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A few quotes from the collapse of this year's west coast salmon fishery:
"Hell, I'm just fishing..."
"Hey, I've always fished this way..."
"Goddam seals are eating all the fish..."
"Why can't we just keep fishing...?"
"You mean we're really running out of fish...?"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2008 - 08:45pm PT
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Dingus,
regional tolerances obviously vary greatly.
Joe,
it has already happened plenty.
I just let my climbs speak for themselves.
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WBraun
climber
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Hey
Don't go away, were not done yet.
Where's that Walleye????
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