Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
|
One man's "Useless Void" is anothers treasure. Mind control is probably the most important tool in any climbers kit, maybe you need to practice some more?
If you gained some mind control then you would be able to enjoy all those run out routes mostly to yourself. Who gives anyone the right to decide how many bolts should be placed on a climb? If retrobolters added bolts in the same style that the route was put up they might understand the need for run-outs.
There are routes that I will never do because I am unwilling to put my life at risk. Does that give me authority to decide to take matters in my own hands and "Fix" those climbs so that they can be enjoyed by the masses? I don't think so......So who made you God?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
|
Werner...I care somewhat about the sport of climbing...I really don't care if someone climbs a route ground up.
It a matter of style...and that a personal choice.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
|
You guys talking ground up "with hooks"?
Cuz' I know some trads that think that's "cheatin'
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Las Vizzle, on the rizzle
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
|
Jello....
Did you just mention New Music? On Lumpy Ridge...booyakashaw! Climbed that with the original hardware. Sickbird!
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
|
Like someone said, go find yout own damned routes and do them any way you see fit. DOn;t fvck wiht other people's routes if yo ucan't handle em the wya they went up,
See how simple that is?
Instead of whining and pissing and moaning, go make some new "sanitized for your protection" routes.
As yet another person said, and not for the last time I am sure, not every route is for every person.
ANother oldie but goodie:
You do not have the right to climb any old rock any old way you want.
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
|
How do you "ground up" an 80-foot crack that's filled with 2 tons of dirt?
|
|
KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
|
With gear,aiders,cleaning tools,brushes and eyewear. Now that's style!
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
|
IMHO no other topic has had so many words invested to so little effect – as has this one. I leave string theory out of this calculation as that is quite frankly beyond my ken. This interest in reordering the deck chairs on the Titanic always happens when some fundamental fact is missed. .
On one of my first climbs my tutor was stretched out, hanging by one hand, underneath a five foot roof. (As I had not yet given up on sneakers I was always relieved to see a roof coming up. I figured at least for awhile I would not need my feet.) This was also before hammer holsters were invented. The sling to my teacher’s five pound sledge ran into his back pocket and thence immediately out through a hole in the back, so the hammer was in fact swinging in the breeze. In order to put a pin in the wall above, mind you while still doing a one arm, he had to pull the hammer up till it got stuck in the hole. Hanging from one hand he had to put the sling in his teeth so the free hand could wriggle the hammer head through the hole. After tapping the pin once( a five pound sledge does that for you) he then threaded the hammer back through the hole in his pocket so it would be readily available for its next use. I have taken you through this tortured narrative because upon seeing this I learned a very fundamental fact. Each climber has their own form of climbing. Getting the hammer through that hole was part of my teacher’s climbing. Were he to get a new pair of pants I knew for a fact he would do only easy climbs until he had a new hole.
If you go to “Slandering the Mags” and read Steve Wunsch’s “Cruising Twelfth Street’ you will get perhaps a better description of this. What’s my point? The only reasons for discussion of how others climb is either out of pure curiosity or as a way to learn. There is no value system as there is no meaningful way to compare what different people actually do on a climb. We are pretending there is a value system where nothing actually exists. If I were foolishly to try and put it in physical terms, the dimensionality of the climbing metric is not finite. But I am not so foolish, so I won’t. Tell me where I am wrong. Please.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
|
Brent- earlier in this thread I told Munge that I would stop wagging my tongue (primarily because it just encouraged Mr Christ to keep spewing, as well). But since you brought up New Music, I think I'll break my vow and talk to you. First, I'm glad you enjoyed the route. It's one of those naturally run-out types that would be threatened by the tactics of retro-bolting mentioned here, and I hope that doesn't happen. It's in no way a "death route", but long falls are possible in several places. This is the natural character of the climb, don't you agree? Malcolm did a fine job of safely climbing and adequately protecting the first pitch. That gave me the second pitch which I felt was perfectly adequately protected by the one bolt I placed from the good foothold above the roof. Although it's pretty stout climbing for about 20 or 25' feet straight up to that wierd pod, where I suppose you could stop an place another bolt, the climbing eases so much from there to the belay that it seemed superfluous. Do you agree? Incidentally, did you do the upper pitches? There's some nice climbing on them, too, but I don't know if anyone's done them, most people seem to rap off after the second pitch.
I'd like to get your honest perspective on the value of this climb and others like it. Would you mind?
Cheers,
Jeff-
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
|
I'm not claiming that. I am claiming they are responsible for creating a useless void where an enjoyable route should be.
This is a question of esthetics and style, it essentially a fashion statement... climbs, climbing styles, climbing areas and climbing itself comes and goes out of fashion. As do all things cultural. If the meaning of the activity has any depth at all, then the activity itself is more than just the most recent, and transient, interpretation of that activity.
I enjoy offwidth, I enjoy squeeze chimneys... I don't share that enjoyment with many people... but there are some out there. I appreciate the routes that are in the Valley, and I especially appreciate the fact that they haven't been turned into "enjoyable" climbs, where the quotes are meant to emphasize the fact that not many people climb these routes, at least in part, because of the problematic protection.
It would be truely horrible if the Crack of Doom or the Crack of Dispair were retrobolted so that the exprience of climbing them would be free of the contemplation of "danger" running out long chimney climbs. Not fashionable. I would rather commune with Sacherer and Pratt on their own terms, or at least as closely as possible, on their climbs, as they did them.
So Wes, what do you want? You've got it I think... you are free to go out and change anything you want. There is no police force out there stopping you.
You might have to put up with a shitstorm from the community if you do this, but hey, no one is stopping you.
If you want approval and affirmation from the community, well, your proposal just won't get it... at least where I have climbed. But if you believe in your own view point, put theory into practice and weather what ever happens.
Take it like a man, stand up for what you believe... even if you will be haunted by Jaybro's ghost for the rest of your time on earth.... and then he'll probably kick your ass on the otherside; if there is one.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
|
Wes:
I have to say this. During the past 25 years I have not encountered one place where the people were as willing to discuss things as they are here. While I am demonstrably old I am not sure I am a true curmudgeon, yet. In the 70’s Jim B was the last Yosemite type I knew and I met the youngsters at Ken’s Facelift in August. Jim is a kick and the youngsters are frankly an amazing lot. We surely are in agreement this forum is a tremendous resource we need to use as best we can.
Over all these years a great number of capable and intelligent people have been unable to get their arms around some questions. There has to be a reason. We have objective data that we can do it. In my post I adopted the hypothesis that this has been so because we have not been careful enough to define terms and have not broken complex questions down into their fundamental units. Atoms if you will. So I asked myself what were the important things I saw as a beginner following my tutor up an established climb. The physical pleasure of doing a climb is important. If I am any kind of a decent human being that means I must want others also to get this kind of enjoyment if they wish it. I wanted to feel that I was getting a little better. While a lot of people feel this way also, that does not mean everyone has to. By no means. And as I recounted no two of us climb the same way. If you accept these ideas, there are huge consequences.
Immediately we understand why one person says this climb is a 5.X and another says it is a 5.Y. One person may have been climbing no handed because that is their form of climbing. So we have to take the rating system and everything that comes out of it, with a big grain of salt. Indeed our focus on ratings is a little hard to understand. No wonder all the arguments. What should I feel when Lynn Hill does what she does so well? I feel happy for her. Do I consider anyone a celebrity or famous because of what they have done? Absolutely not. I am just pleased they are living the life they want and are enjoying it.
I will end this tirade with the crux. If I would wish to enjoy climbing then I must, with equal fervor, desire that others find enjoyment. Accept this, and the flood gates are opened wide.
Cheers,
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 06:49pm PT
|
All this speculation is interesting, but where is this mythical cliff where every beautiful 5.8 route was put up by 5.11+ climbers who chose to use very few, if any, bolts.
It has been my observation at the hundreds of climbing areas I have visited that there has always been a reasonable selection of routes for climbers who are looking for well-protected, safe climbs.
Bruce
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 07:05pm PT
|
Weschrist is just playing the "Devils Advocate" I believe.
Brings up some deep thoughts and interesting dialog.
Jstan, you are true gentleman almost from a bygone era. I wish I could of talked to you while you were here.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 07:32pm PT
|
Werner:
You have serious responsibilities so your time was short. Ken willing, next year for sure.
Cheers,
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Las Vizzle, on the rizzle
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:01pm PT
|
Jello-
I too climbed just the first two pitches. If I remember right, it was a fun afternoon, just relaxed and upto it on that day. I'd looked at it for so long, it just seemed like to nice a line to be my demise.
As far as the merits of these types of lines it is up to the FIRST person to get there, imho. The rocks of the world are a canvas...you can turn them into whatever you want. I know Bob D. and have talked, listened and butted heads with him at times about what to do with this canvas.
What I have learned is there is no dictatin style to someone else. What I see as a possible spiritual send on rp's and bubblegum someone else might think looks like a nice warm up for the real routes. Defer to first ascentionist, defer to local ethic, don't be a jerk, try to keep our ego's out of it...and let what lingers below your feet stand as a testament to what kind of climber you were in that moment?
I love all these runout routes...not up for all of them, but sometimes I am...there are enuff grid bolted fluff pieces that a few of these stand as just a proud a gem...
I have established a small and humble list of FA's...but I hope that anyone that has climbed one has felt what I felt and appreciated the rock the way I did.
Alas not, one of my Black Canyon routes (shared with Jim Beyer) is already rapbolted in the name of freeclimbing. What a muthafuqn great day that was when I sent that pitch! Too bad noone else gets to feel that.
Love the proud routes!
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:08pm PT
|
Thanks for your take on things, Brent.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:09pm PT
|
My best FA's are the one that get climbed the most.
John S....long time no see. Hope you are well?
Later, Bob
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
|
My best FA's are the one that get climbed the most.
Not me. Some of my best FAs do get climbed a lot, but several of those have been retrobolted for convenience, not because they were hairy -- that's a shame, IMHO.
Some other FAs were too far from the road, I guess, and have rarely or never been repeated. I still think they're great though.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 09:39pm PT
|
I don't think Wes is just playing DA. He's convinced me that he is serious about retrobolting. Hence, he's here for approval or to merely test the waters or both.
IMO, the attitude you're pushing, Wes, is rooted in pure laziness and the lack of desire necessary to climb these terribly dangerous routes. And someone please shoot me down if I'm wrong, since when is the DNB not a popular hardman testpiece? We did this proud route in May 1983 with valued gear at that time; stoppers, hexes, and barely a set of Friends, and we had a great time up there. Sorry, but I wouldn't rob anyone of that fun by degrading the climbing. How can you place any value on run out routes if you haven't experienced them?
The problem with your position is that you are "murdering the impossible," to quote Messner. You have to understand that bolts directly diminish adventure and that adventure is valuable to the majority of climbers. It's what makes climbing so special. Contempt for history gets you nowhere youth and leads to a lot of mistakes.
Cheers,
Mimi
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
|
A ground up ascent where the FA deliberately sacrifices the ability to optimally design the route for future climbers is an ascent in very poor style.
If you would rather do silly Evel Knievel style stunts than climb, that's fine. But if you produce a f*#ked up route while doing it, you're kidding yourself if you really expect future climbers to leave it alone. Sorry.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!