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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:55pm PT
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Hey them right wingers are good at green cards. I've voted for the Republican Radonovich for the past two elections as payback for a green card his office very efficiently got for a friend of mine.
Of course, since he was going to get elected anyway, it was a safe vote
Peace
karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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"In other words, the Commission staffers were told about the project but ignored it because it didn't fit their pre-conceived conclusions."
Your conlusion. Or they carefully considered it and found it to be not credible based on the weight of the evidence.
But Karl, reading your post above, I really don't know what to make of your position. Your arguments are seemingly contradictory. The only common thread is that the WTC attack was a U.S. government conspiracy (a pre-conceived conclusion). Did an Al Queda team led by Atta fly planes into the building or was the attack an "inside" job with pre-set explosives? If it wasn't a terrorist attack, how could 9/11 Commission be covering that up?
Edit: Karl, you keep coming back to WTC 7. Please explain exactly how you think the collapse of WTC 7 is evidence of a conspiracy. I've seen various arguements regarding WTC & but haven't seen anything credible.
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andanother
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:31pm PT
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fattard wrote:
"The poll that someone posted last week that reported that 40% considered their religion above being a US citizen should prompt deportations."
It blows my mind that anyone can say such stupid, hypocritical things. You lack the ability to comprehend and think ABOUT things. You just regurgitate the sh#t you happen to overhear on TV or the radio.
So fattard, where should we deport all those right wing conservative christians that have live in the US for many generations?
Do you honestly beleive that christians are somehow different than muslims or jews? Are you really that stupid?
Because I guarantee that 100% of christians consider their religion more important than their citizenship.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
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"You're dealing with someone who initially climbed barefooted, with a rope woven out of reeds and used small stones and marbles for pro. Nothing can faze me. I even like falling; ask locker. "
Hey, I did start climbing barefoot and still do on some routes when I'm back in S.I. and I still use stones for pro on occasion (I've got one I've been using for 17 years for one particular placement), but I have to admit we used goldline instead of weaving our own, though there was plenty of hemp around if we had decided to*. And falling? What would be the point of climbing except for falling? It would be completely boring without falling.
[ Note on weaving rope with hemp: Members of our tribe with certain skills and positions in the chem labs made regular runs to the remants of the "old growth" WWII hemp fields in eastern Kansas to stuff their trunks with the raw materials of a particularly nasty oil they produced semi-annually. We noted at the time what a good rope making material it was, though we kept fogetting whether the next twist was to the right or left when attempting it. Really hard to make rope under such trying circumstances... ]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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GraniteClimber
I only accusation I'm making is that we're not getting the whole story. I want to whole story and that includes World Trade Center 7.
As for Mohammed Atta, read it again
"But the Commission now admits its acclaimed Final Report ignored key information provided by a U.S. Army data mining project, Able Danger, which identified Mohammed Atta and several other hijackers as potential terrorists prior to the September 11 attacks. The Able Danger team recommended that Atta and the other suspected terrorists be deported. That recommendation, however, was not shared with law enforcement officials, presumably because of the "wall" between intelligence activities and domestic law enforcement.
According to the New York Times, the 9/11 Commission officials said that Able Danger had not been included in their report because some of the information sounded inconsistent with what they thought they knew about Atta. "
Not good enough. There was clear and credible evidence that the Feds knew about Mohammed Atta before 9-11 and wanted him deported but dropped the ball on it. If that info didn't belong in the report, it should have been included anyway with a disclaimer of why it was irrelevant. Whitewash.
And Fatty, realistically speaking, every singe truly religious person in the world puts God before Country. God made Country. God's passport is more significant. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or not really faithful.
So the real question is "where do God and Country conflict?"
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 10, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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"There was clear and credible evidence that the Feds knew about Mohammed Atta before 9-11 and wanted him deported but dropped the ball on it."
This is undeniable, but all the hullabaloo about who knew and reported/presented what and when is a bit over played all the way around.
As far as the attacks themselves go - they were easily preventable with one easy-to-implement measure: a robust monitoring protocol for applicants to all the major flight schools in the US and EU would have stopped these particular attacks cold. Coming from a family of commercial pilots I can testify that there were no formal protocols in place for this has long cultural roots in the fact that such schools have a long history of being associated with male, monied, ex-military, and republican stereotypes. They were also real money makers that fed off a steady stream of Middle Eastern clients and patrons including members of a number of royal families from the region. This was more of a cultural blindspot aided and abetted by the owners of the schools who as a class resisted such measures because they considered them as an "insult" or blemish on their patriotism.
But the FBI agents in Phoenix and Minneapolis were on it - they understood these schools were the bottleneck where such attacks could be detected and stopped; where such plots could be identified as a matter of course had formal protocols been in place prior to 9/11. This would have been easy and inexpensive to implement as the number of schools and students is so small as to be trivial from a policing and intel perspective. Sad such a blatant security hole passed unnoticed, but again there were real cultural reasons why this was the case and why FBI higher ups were loathe to pursue those leads.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Nov 10, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
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"Try this experiment:
The NIST report says that the core columns were caused to "displace downward from plasticity and high creep strains in high stress and high temperatures".
Find a chain-link fence post imbedded in the ground that is 3 or 6 or whatever feet high. This will represent the 47 core columns.
Stack concrete blocks on the post, 500, or 1000, or 2000 pounds. This represents the weight of the building.
Measure the height of the post.
Invite all your friends to bring propane torches. This will represent the fire induced high temps. Jet fuel is basically kerosene- think of a kerosene lamp with the wick up-smoky flame, like is seen in the twin towers, so propane should provide higher potential heat.
Have everyone train the torches on the post- thirty or more would be good. (careful). Start the timekeeping.
Torch the loaded post until the fuel runs out. Use more fuel if desired. Really heat
that thing!
Hit the post with hammers to represent shock loads. (careful)
Measure the downward displacement from plasticity and high creep strains.
Calculate the elapsed time for the column to become 6" high.
Review official story, and think about it."
Here is a much better quote from the NIST report:
"The specific factors in the collapse sequences relevant to both towers (the sequences vary in detail for WTC 1 and WTC 2) are:
1) Each aircraft severed perimeter columns, damaged interior core columns and knocked off fireproofing from steel as the planes penetrated the buildings. The weight carried by the severed columns was distributed to other columns.
2) Subsequently, fires began that were initiated by the aircraft’s jet fuel but were fed for the most part by the building contents and the air supply resulting from breached walls and fire-induced window breakage.
3)These fires, in combination with the dislodged fireproofing, were responsible for a chain of events in which the building core weakened and began losing its ability to carry loads.
The floors weakened and sagged from the fires, pulling inward on the perimeter columns.
4)Floor sagging and exposure to high temperatures caused the perimeter columns to bow inward and buckle—a process that spread across the faces of the buildings.
Collapse then ensued.
The sequences are supported by extensive computer modeling and the evidence held by NIST, including photographs and videos, recovered steel, eyewitness accounts and emergency communication records."
What's not clear is whether you think we're all stupid or just that you're stupid yourself. I suppose it doesn't really matter--except as it relates to intent.
Curt
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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Nov 10, 2006 - 07:49pm PT
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I can't believe how many people believe the crap on the "911TRUTH" website. They should change the site name to "911FORMORONS". What is even more amazing is how many relatively intelligent people believe that the moon landing was faked (a simple movie set) and that aliens from outer space visit us regularly.
The analysis of the collapse of the World Trade Center was conducted by a group of the finest structural engineers in the country. I know some of the authors of the study through there lectures on related subjects and their integrity is beyond reproach. There is no conspiracy by the authors of the report by the 911 commission on the cause of the collapse.
I have personally designed hundreds of buildings all over the world as a practicing licensed California structural engineer. I have read most of the technical papers on the collapse. The "progressive" collapse was the result of many factors outline in the NIST (see Curt's reply above). Many government buildings have been modified since 911 due to the WTC research and the continuing research on how to prevent "Progressive Collapse".
Look carefully at the video footage of the collapse. Just before the progressive collapse the upper stories above the impact zone twist (torsional instability) and then the collapse starts pancaking down from the impact zone not from the base of the tower. If there were demolition charges in the base of the building the tower would have collapsed from the bottom floors not starting at the impact zone. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that one out. Look carefully at the footage and it becomes obvious.
I personally think the conspiracy theorist give Bush way too much credit. I don't think he is remotely mentally capable of thinking up such a scheme in the first place.
P.S. I must admit my belief in God appears just as moronic as the conspiracy theorists since there is not a shred of physical proof he/she exists. That is the funny part about life......one persons belief can be perceived by others as garbage and visa versa. The reality is that we can never truly know the absolute truth in this life unless you are Rush Limbaugh.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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Wheatus wrote:
"P.S. I must admit my belief in God appears just as moronic as the conspiracy theorists since there is not a shred of physical proof he/she exists. That is the funny part about life......one persons belief can be perceived by others as garbage and visa versa. The reality is that we can never truly know the absolute truth in this life unless you are Rush Limbaugh.'
Thank you for that bit of honesty and perspective. To take it a bit further, to believe in reality as presented to us by our senses is also pure foolishness. Science has well established that nearly everything is comprised of the very same vibrating energy and that the world around us, including ourselves, is comprised mostly of empty space. We are surrounded by countless invisible worlds including hundreds of TV channels, cell calls, and cosmic rays.
The world is not as we see it, no matter how we see it.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
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You are wrong Lois about Karl, I know him and he is definitely not trying to desperately make something true. That is the farthest from the real truth you'll ever get about him.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Lois, it's good that you live on the East coast so I can't conveniently strangle you. You wrote
"The problem, Karl, is that you desparately want it to true. This is the same problem Dan Rathers had with the Bush "font gate" debacle. He wanted it to be true so intensely that he lost all manner of objectivity. Accordingly, an otherwise competent newsman f up big time. "
Lois, in this thread I have mostly called for open inquiry, not thrwarted by political whitewashing. I stand by that and don't think it resembles your remarks at all.
Regarding the conduct of the war in Iraq, I have said things and backed them up with documents, links, and facts. Something you haven't done, so put up or shut up. Furthermore I haven't argued ever than either tower was put down by explosives, which is what Wheatus commented on. but since you don't read carefully, that's probably too subtle for you.
And also Lois, the basic facts that Dan Rather was reporting were true, true, true. It's just that the document was forged. Dan Rather got fired for believing a forged document but Bush got forged documents regarding the Nigerian uranium, was told they were forged and used that info in his state of the Union address to justify invasion. Why doesn't he resign? Oh wait, I just stated some facts and specifics. Your eyes have undoubtedly glossed over by now and I could call you a stupid bitch and you might not notice. Should I dare? Naw. I'm just upset much along the same lines as you might be if I posted something like
Lois, you keep stating that Bush is a fine president who merely got bad advice and you seem be calling for a third term. Don't you know that's against the law?
That's how close to restating my position you are.
Love and Kisses
Karl
Of course Lois, I believe Bush has commited criminal activity. Why? Because I studied what he did. Did you have to wait for the verdict of Saddam's trial to believe he was a criminal? If he's not, why did HR 6166 specifically create immunity for Bush and his crew for their war crimes? Just in case somebody like me misunderstood?
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 10, 2006 - 10:30pm PT
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"The American people have taken the first step on the right path in order to get out of their impasse and have started to realize the treachery of their president and his subordination to Israel, voting for a measure of reason in the latest elections."
Abu Hamza al-Muhajer
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Nov 10, 2006 - 10:46pm PT
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FT; we just went over that Saud thing...Al Waleed owns controlling shares of (Newscorp) Fox and a good chunk of Citi...
"I picked up the phone and called Murdoch... (and told him) these are not Muslim riots, these are riots out of poverty," he said.
"Within 30 minutes, the title was changed from Muslim riots to civil riots."
Saud Approved™ (Fox News)...walk with me here...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
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Oh Lois, That was sweet! I got you!
And I give you credit for not deleting your post or editing it under the table.
I bet we'd be fine in person, just like everybody else here gets along at the crags
Peace
Karl
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
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Lois, You're correct. There are many people that want something to be true that no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, they refuse to accept it. This is a "religious" mindset. It is a fanatical devotion to the fantastic that destroys any ability to rationality on the subject in question. You find this thinking among all fundamentalists, be it religious conviction, political ideology or an insane belief that Bush et al are responsible for the destruction of the Twin Towers.
You present these types with an enormous amount of expert analysis from independent and objective people from repected organizations and institutions, and they reject it. A plethora of information has been published explaining all from these groups, and it is pushed aside. This is analogous to the dispute between religious fundamentalists and science vis a vis evolution. They will hold firmly to their aberrant position and corrupted logic until the day they die because they are incapable of letting go of Bush hate. It's not worth any more effort dealing with these people than it is trying to convince a Biblical literalist that Adam and Eve are metaphorical.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:34pm PT
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http://vincentdunn.com/dunn/a&e/buildings.htm
According to this guy, the WTC towers were more vulnerable to collapse in a fire then most high rise buildings.
‑ Steel bar joist truss construction. The lightweight steel bar joist was used to support floors in the World Trade Center. This floor support is another form of lightweight floor and roof construction used throughout the country that has the fire service alarmed and is mistakenly blamed on architects, engineers and code officials. When unprotected, lightweight bar joist beams can fail within five to 10 minutes of fire exposure. The World Trade Center, constructed by the Port Authority, was the only high‑rise office building in New York City to use lightweight bar joist construction in high‑rise office building construction.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:47pm PT
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For happie
Woody...I'ma comin' ta Jtree in a few weeks, and I suggest you better make sure you don't git stuck with me on the beelay end o yer rope....I'll wait til you're at the cruxiest section of crux and....shortrope you until you beg - BEG, I say - beg to be forgiven for all your impudence here against the fair SuperTacoers Against Bush (STAB).
Watch out - I'm comin to git Ya!!!
He'll just untie the rope, finish the pitch, and then trundle a big boulder on your head, turning off his hearing aid so he can't hear the protestation.
I left a little company called ABM only a few months before 911. Ran a national accounts group for a division and was on a first name basis of managing parties at the WTC. Some aren't here any more! Every building engineer, janitor, electrician, elevator mechanic that worked in that building worked for us. No one could do anything in that building without our knowledge or approval. The planting of the conspiracists explosives would have involved cutting open walls in hundreds if not thousands of locations. The steel in a large building is buried behind the interior walls. There's no easy way to get to it.
Large buildings are like small towns. Everyone knows more than they should about everyone elses gossip.
It didn't happen!
Why are so many ready to discount the self proclaimed goals of an ideology who's aims have not changed or been continualy expressed since 600 AD, and have loudly claimed credit for, for a fantasy of self emulation?
Are you really that insane?
or do you just have your
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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Conspiracy theory on how the secret government operatives wipe their mouths:
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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You know it is really kind of funny.
The OCTers and Bush apologists will never be able to overcome the physical evidence that proves 9-11 was an inside job, yet they try, try, try.
The Genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back. Why do you all try so hard? It's fruit-less. It is like saying the Earth is the center of the Universe. Sorry evidence says otherwise.
The Church was wrong and couldn't silence Galileo, and neither can you silence 9-11 Truth.
Edit: Good luck in your ignorance.
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