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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 22, 2015 - 11:40pm PT
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Are you old enough to drink? Oh hey, a peaceable offer to bro out over beers?? Sweet, dude. I'll take whiskey.
Man, I yell "watch me" on sport climbs so I don't know what you're talking about. Hah! What was I thinking? I've heard you whine on too many squeeze chimneys to call you a real man ;) But who am I to talk, I shamelessly ask for hugs before scary leads...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 23, 2015 - 05:11am PT
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Some funny sh#t here! Even if it does poke around some real issues. Very much in the classic
Shittalking / baiting / trolling tradition.
But I gotta say, for a generalist like myself Виталий nailed it about width, breadth, and opportunity in climbing.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Aug 23, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
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Is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of BURT BRONSON when they read Warbler's posts?
From fb:
]HELLO EVERYONE. BURT BRONSON HERE.
PLEASE - I ENCOURAGE YOU AGAIN TO LOG OFF YOUR COMPUTER SELL YOUR SHINY WHINY SPORT WEENIE GEAR. FIND SOME THREAD AND NEEDLE AND LEARN TO KNIT LIKE A LADY. LEAVE THE MAN FUN TO A REAL MAN, LIKE LYNN HILL. KEEP THE CLIMBS WILD AND FREE FOR REAL MEN TO CLIMB AS GOD INTENDED. ALL OF YOU PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO CAN'T HANDLE HIGH WINDS AND RUN OUTS SHOULD STILL TAKE UP KNITTING. AND YOU GYM BABIES SHOULD LISTEN TO YOUR MOMMIES AND NOT PLAY ON THE ROCKS OUTSIDE. GYMS TURN GOOD MEN INTO GOO. IF YOU ARE A REAL MAN, YOU WILL CUT BARK BEFORE YOU SET FOOT IN A GYM. WELL, OFF TO FREE SOLO THE NOSESTRUM. GOING TO BEAT MY RECORD. YES I PUSHED TOO HARD ON THAT CHIMNEY ON THE DOME OF HALF AND IT ALL CAME TUMBLING DOWN. OF COURSE I DID NOT FALL OFF. SORRY ABOUT THAT TO ALL YOU WEENS WHO CANNOT DO A ONE HUNDRED FOOT DYNO. IT STILL GOES FREE BOYS. IF YOU ARE MAN ENOUGH. I CAN STILL KNIT BETTER THAN YOU TOO.
BURT BRONSON
THE LAST BASTION OF THE HARD MAN AND THE LAST BASTION OF THE SERIOUS CLIMBER
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 23, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
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I CAN STILL KNIT BETTER THAN YOU TOO.
BURT BRONSON
THAT WAS NOT ME POSTING! REPEAT, NOT ME!
BB.
(received as personal message from BB)
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 23, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
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I don't have statistics to back my observations up, admittedly, but parallel to that is the increase in female participation in "climbing" This was ALL that prompted disagreement from me: "female participation has all but tamed the wild beast." It is impossible to support this hypothesis with data. It's a correlation with no evidence of causation. Data I would accept in favor of your argument: show me women have been retrobolting bold lines, but men haven't. Show me that women are gridbolting sport crags, while men aren't. Etc.
there has been an outspoken feminist minority that has a public hissy fit any time a publication "objectifies" women or pictures them in anything resembling a sexy way Those two things simply aren't the same thing. A sensible feminist, or human, or whatever, understands that. It's hardly "objectification" to notice a sexy person. A photo of a woman climbing in a bikini? Probably not objectification. An endless stream of comments in response to the photo that ignore that she's a person and fixate on how she's there because BOOBS BOOBS BOOBS? Yeah, objectification.
(And since you are SO fond of merriam webster's definitions, let's look up feminism. "The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities." Equal is the key word.)
Still hoping this is an elaborate troll and you actually don't think these things... ;)
I can't.
I wish I could. Tami, I can teach you how to knit! Engineers and climbers always seem to learn best, as they know a lot about designing things and making knots, respectively :)
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Aug 23, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
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You could say correctly " Don't like a thread ? Don't click on it" and yes that would be true ( I don't click on them BTW )
Demonstrably false. What a dumb thread; what dumb comments throughout.
Get lives, losers!!
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 23, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
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you will never know what climbing culture in California was like in the late sixties and early seventies like I do. No, I won't--the Yosemite I know is basically Disney World. But watching Yosemite change does not automatically mean you know why it changed. WAY more things have changed about climbing between '70 and '15 than the number of women participating. I have no idea why you existing in 1970 means you "know" that women are the cause of the change.
Goodness, we could even design a well-controlled study to test some ideas about what effect learning styles prevalent in '70 vs '15 have on the future of a climber. We could take people who have never climbed and create several groups, learning on real rock or in gyms, doing their first climbs with or without topos, etc, and do a longitudinal survey of their progress. Measurable ;)
And, since you're SO curious, I'm 25, and when I was 18 months old I sneakily climbed my way onto a chandelier and my mother walked into the room to find me swinging about on the light fixture.
(Mike, what a day. I can't hear the words "Bugaboos" or "hail" without grinning like a doofus.)
jgill, awesome link! Thanks.
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viv.r.e
climber
Sacramento
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Aug 23, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
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I'm going to do something shocking, which is agree with Warbler--in spite of the fact I think he called me vulvre:
Your opinion is based on what you predict, or hope, will happen as far as female FAs go, mine is based on what has happened.
You're absolutely right. That's why I prefaced my comment about the fact I think you will see more women throwing down with "I think." There's a pipeline and there are more women in it, as you pointed out. I'm not going to limit myself to what has happened moving forward, and frankly, neither do you. That's why you did FAs and FFAs.
If we only based what is possible on what has happened, then my outdoor activities would be based around Burt Bronson's haul bag and making my man a sandwich. Fill in blank right's movement would still be stuck in the 1850's. Without that love of exploring and pushing the boundaries, the next time we got the plague from a yosemite squirrel licking our faces, we'd die because there'd be no antibiotics. Without it that sense of possibility, then we might as well all just stick to playing B-I-N-G-O.
Tami-you rock. Not that I'm always a model of politeness, but I don't get why people confuse being rude with being honest.
http://i.imgur.com/3POyupA.gif
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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jgill, that link about women climbers is wonderful. So much quotable material there. Thanks.
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viv.r.e
climber
Sacramento
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
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I think I'm also done with going in circles and joining the agree to disagree boat. To end on a positive/semi-thoughtful note. +1 on jgill's link. One of my favorite quotes is this one:
[Holland] had lately become a devotee of 'rubbers' (gym-shoes), even on wet ground, where most climbers - bar the latest 'tigers' - find that they slip as treacherously as on ice. The rubber shoe had just come in [1918] and divided the climbing world as sharply as later the question of oxygen or no oxygen for Everest was to do. 'Dangerous and dishonest, and quite out of the true tradition of the sport', said one party. To which the other replied, 'what about the nails in your boots, the rope and your carefully chosen ice-axe? Equally they make climbs much easier.' The same dispute arises with every technical innovation which in any way changes the standard of difficulty."
This makes me think of what started the thread (the NYT article), which in a way, is just a continuation of that same debate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 23, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
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I get Kevin's point, but have to respectfully disagree.
Men ran climbing into the dirt with a broad commercialization driven by climbing gyms and with sport climbing. It started out slow, but the demographic really took off as the pace of gym building cranked up and especially once the media and advertisers started incorporating the imagery with more frequency. I honestly believe climbing would have ended up in exactly this place even if no women showed up to party.
And to be honest, even back in the 70's, before sport, only a small percentage of people were either artisans with pro or such a maniac it didn't matter, say 15%. Another 35% were competent and the rest were nervous and sport climbing couldn't have come on the scene fast enough for them. Women had nothing to do with that dynamic. It was bolts, not boobs, that did in climbing.
Reduce climbing to just another risk-free, pop-suburban entertainment option and what do you expect? I always expected exactly what we got.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 24, 2015 - 09:02am PT
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it has clearly been shown, and recently reviewed that women show higher anxiety in comparison to men (Mchenry et al., 2014)From all behavioral parameters, the anxiety seems to be most sensitive to testosterone.... similar anxiolytic effects of single testosterone administration resulted in reduced fear(Van Honk et al., 2005).
Call me a misogynistic perpetrator of the patriarchy, but I would expect that higher anxiety doesn't lend itself to seeking out inherently uncertain-outcome activities like adventure climbing, FAs, etc. Those gyms sure are soothing though, nice pastels on the walls, music that makes you think you never left your car, metro SNAG boys working the desk in their subservient manner, snacks in the lobby, couches and bean bags. It's almost as good as Xanax.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Aug 24, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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KEVIN
IT"S THE UNIVERSE CALLING
STOP DIGGING!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 24, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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The draw that is, training and the lure of other like minded people working to maintain fitness, while pursuing the act of being a good YO-YO, did entice me a few times.
I was sad to see the sea-change in rock climbing that, that indoor climbing led to.
the form and function of indoor, simulated to copy the things that occur on real rock, led to people gaining skills beyond the learning curves norm.
Often, after three sessions indoors, males, with a natural upper body strength, are climbing juggy 5.11. There is no suffering. No learning curve in gear or form. No going from a rope wrapped around the waist thru tied webbing swami, to tied diaper, to harness.
No finding the amazing weight difference, between the old gear, pins and hamer, to a rack of nuts, both spiritually and physically Up-lifting.
The ability to find the rocks, and other climbers, was part of the gumby gate, if you wanted to rock climb, you had to get to the rocks, if all you did when you got there was stand around and look up, no one noticed, no one was there to stand around and stare. Going Climbing Meant something different then.
Now it is a sanitized world that leads to 'climbers' wanting clean trails, lines up the rock marked by every passage with white dots and smears, so that no dirt - environmental hazards - exist.
bring in the security of bolts, anchors or protection, and many people want to have more , not less. The thinking was that the Gunks needed bolted anchors, the thing is that the placing of bolted anchors opens the question of why not be as safe as can be, why risk at all.
Not me ... by choice, I climb in the woods on fresh dirty stone and try not to use chalk, ever. Trying is easy if you have no chalk, bring it around me and I dipp. Chalk is a white powder and every hippie used to know from caffeine to heroin, the white powder habbits are the hardest to break.
And that Is another thing about gyms they teach all the bad habits, instilling the wrong lessons and making important the things that in long run do not matter.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Aug 24, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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just call me kitten
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Aug 24, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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"Someone please explain to me why my belief that women have been instrumental in taming the average climbing experience translates to any negative feelings about them on my part."
1. Lynn Hill, StoneMaster, World Champion Comp Climber, 1st Free Acsent of The Nose, 1st Women to Climb 5.13, Mother and Still Climbing 5.13
2. Catherine Destivelle, World Champion Comp Climber, Free Soloist, 1st Ascents World Wide
3. Mari Gingery, StoneMaster, 1st Ascents, in the Needels. Joshua Tree and tall over California.
4. Silvia Vida, Big Wall Soloist on EL Cap and Walls all over the World.
5. JO Whitford, Yosemite Rock Climber extraordinaire.
6. Steph Davis, Free Climbed EL Cap, Free Soloist, B.A.S.E. Jumper
7 Beth Rodden, 1st Free Ascento of Lurking Fear, 2nd Free Ascent of the Nose.
8. Katie Lambert, Top Level Yosemite Trad Climber.
9. Kate Rutherford, 1st Ascents World Wide, Alpine Climber.
10. Emily Harrington. Top Sport Climber, Free Climbed EL Cap, Remote 1st Ascents Wold Wide.
Does this Help? These are just a very very few of the Women that have "Tamed" Climbing. .Im not even going to mention the Women that invented Cams or Sticky Rubber, Portaledges, Grid Bolting, Sport Climbing, Books and Books of Topos and Hot Climbing Tops, yes they've for sure Tamed Climbing. df
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 24, 2015 - 11:43am PT
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Again, bolts - not boobs, and women by and large didn't do the drilling.
If the bolts evaporated overnight the demographic would be 15% of what it is today and legions of 'hot' women climbers wouldn't do squat to lure them back.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 24, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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I would expect that higher anxiety doesn't lend itself to seeking out inherently uncertain-outcome activities like adventure climbing, FAs, etc. I think based on your previous posts that you're being facetious, but in all seriousness, I don't think you can draw that conclusion.
(1) Anxiety change from baseline (during activity such as climbing) would be the relevant measure here. I don't think baseline anxiety is a great predictor of that.
(2) I've heard a lot of people throw around the idea that climbers are a bit nuts, or that they're drawn to the wilderness because they have trouble settling down like a "normal" person. Climbing....calms us down. I suspect many of us are afflicted with that existential anxiety that can't seem to be assuaged by a paycheck, and learning to deal with uncertainty and fear while adventure climbing does a lot to help diffuse the anxiety about life :)
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