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scuffy b
climber
Chalet Neva-Care
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Jul 13, 2006 - 11:49am PT
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Whether it's thin face or slab depends on the frequency that you
hear:
"I f*#kin hate slab..I f*#kin hate slab..I f*#kin hate slab.."
Not so much on the 80-85 degree stuff.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 13, 2006 - 12:25pm PT
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Great thread!
As much as possible I try not to use chalk. But sitting here reading this, "I know I have a problem."
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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Jul 13, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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mooch
Trad climber
Fresno
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Jul 13, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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Damn Jan.....how old were you when you did Valhalla?
And, yes, Valhalla is a STEEP slab climb. Come off it and find out!!
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jul 13, 2006 - 12:48pm PT
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I propose that 'If you can let go with both hands without falling off' then it's a slab route. That means that anything over about 80 degrees is not gonna qualify because you are gonna fall over backwards.
Estwing, it is all 'make believe'! When we told you it was also mental power that got you up thin face, what did you think we meant? It is all about your ability to put your foot there and 'make believe' that it will stay. If you believe hard enough it works, if you don't, you fall, every time. Just like Peter f*#king Pan or the little engine that could. If you want it bad enough, you can have it. Oh, and the ability to pull like a mad fiend really helps.
Oh, and KP has lost his mantle of guruhood. He has lost his ability to believe in himself and his powers to make up his own reality. We need a new guru!
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 13, 2006 - 12:50pm PT
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Slab vs. Face.
Maybe it is not the angle of the rock, but the angle of your center of gravity to your feet?
Clearly when CG to feet goes beyond vertical, the crimp is providing a necessary "x" component (or the x component is "more important" than the "y" component).
The problem with this definition is climbing a well inclined latter could be done as a "slab".
Oh well...
Edit:
I was writing this while above was posted.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jul 13, 2006 - 12:50pm PT
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Mooch (Dave?) I was probably 24 or 25 in that photo which would make it 1974 when I was allowed into the club. You do have to realize that I got 'carded' until I was 40 when the wrinkles finally overcame the baby face.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 13, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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So I've been following this fine thread with much interest, and in hope that it hasn't lost it's momentum, would some of the "slab vets" posting here speak to the following loosely historical question(s):
When climbers started putting up slab climbs (assuming most of the obvious trad lines had already been climbed), was there any ever disdain among some of the climbing community? In other words, was there ever any accusations of pure slab climbs as being "contrived"?
I imagine there were slab sections to climbs - where crossing blankness was used to link up more prominent natural features, but was there a point where slab climbing became less of a means to an end, and accepted as legitimate climbs unto themselves? Did acceptance come slowly and reluctantly? One of the reasons I ask is because, as Nefarius alluded to above, WoS on El Cap, was not highly regarded in it's day (among the so called elite, that is). So, if heading up into blankness (or the most subtle of features) was not acceptable in aid climbing, was there any similiar disdain for free climbs up slabs? Very curious...
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jul 13, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
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Nate, I am not sure the right people are here to answer that question for you. You would really need to talk to Higgins and Kamps and people from that era. Most of us here started climbing in the 70s or later and by then slab climbing was already going strong, especially for those of us in SoCal where the test pieces of the day were slab climbs at Suicide or Josh.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 13, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
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"I propose that 'If you can let go with both hands without falling off' then it's a slab route. That means that anything over about 80 degrees is not gonna qualify because you are gonna fall over backwards"
there is still a distinction between falling backwards and sliding off. i have been on plenty of slabs where i could let go and hangout sometimes, but other times (i.e. steeper or harder sections) where if i gave uo a palm or a fingernail or a thumb mantle, i would surely have slid into oblivion. would your definition call that face clibing? i disagree.
further, if you are on a low angle face climb (i am thinking easy routes at ORG) where you are clearly climbing on holds and edges and whatnot, often you can let go and hangout, but that ain't slab climbing. by your definition, bottomless topless is a slab route too.
for a climb (or section or move) to be slab, you have to be relying primarily upon friction for purchase. that seems to be a fairly simple definition. anything other than friction, you are then climbing "crack on slab", etc.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 13, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Ed - (our resident librarian), do you recall if Higgins ever wrote anything on the matter?
It's a long shot, but I'm crossing my fingers that LongAgo will post up...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 13, 2006 - 02:41pm PT
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i don't think there was anything but amazment and respect for the climbers who pioneered modern slab routes. the early ones that kamps and company did at tahquitz were fearsome, respected, and coveted by all the top climbers of the day. and in roper's green guide to the valley, he writes with reverence about the breakthrough route "coonyard", which i beleive he referred to as the "first of a series of 'impossible' slab routes put up on the glacier point apron."
btw, vis-a-vis the slab vs. face question: there are PLENTY of edging sections on coonyard, you are crimping for your life, and without those crimps these 5.9 sections would be more like the hard pitches on hall of mirrors. i recall the first 40' of the second-to-last pitch on coonyard being very run-out, continuous 5.9 edging.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jul 13, 2006 - 02:50pm PT
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Wendall Broussard of Vegas told me a story a few years ago about how he met this kid in the gym who did wonders on overhanging 1 finger pull up type of stuff. They agreed to go climbing in Red Rocks.
Wendall leads Frictiony Face Panty Waist (5.9 or so, no definite crux but all on the feet). The kid has a hard time seconding it because he was not used to that style. At the top WB says "How hard do you think that was?"
Kid says " I don't know, maybe 13a"
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jul 13, 2006 - 03:25pm PT
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"Wow -- now people are sub-dividing slab climbing? Small holds, precision footwork and less than vertical terrain define slab climbing. Very few slab routes fall into the pure friction variety where there are no positive holds for hands or feet."
"That said I have to ask what allows some people to seemingly stand on nothing, then move to the next spot of nothing, while I am stuck on seemingly blank 5.10 slab sections. The other guys don't appear to be doing anything visibly different, yet they are moving up, not down. What is the secret?"
I think we need a name for those climbs that are 60 degrees, polished, and may or may not have micro crimpers. For me, it has always been slabs. A 80 face that you can edge/crimp up with board lasted shoes is [surprise] a face climb, not a slab.
When I was working with my parnter on getting better at slabs, I tried to figure out why he could causally move up slabs that I couldn't stand still on.
I think it is several things:
You climb hard slabs very gracefully or you don't climb them at all. On a hard, overhanging crack climb, you can tell the leader is working at it. On a hard slab climb, the lead is more likely to look effortless until the point they start sliding down. So he wasn't climbing as causally as it looked.
I go for soft shoes and curl my toes down and around any sort of irregularity or less slopy part of the slab. I find the Mythos work well.
Even on perfectly smooth/uniform slabs (which are rare) you can still "grip" the rock by frictioning your fingers (I often place my hand with spread fingers and then friction by trying to squeeze the fingers together).
All movements with perfect balance. Don't high step unless it is to a much, much better foot hold.
When I get close to my limit, I notice that sometimes my feet literally start "buttering off" even the lower angle depressions/irregularities. Doesn't mean you can't still make upward progress. But you have to lift your foot and replace it frequently just to stay in one spot ("treading" in place).
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 13, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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here's a sweet slab we found a couple of months ago way up on mt. eldon with a killer view overlooking flagstaff. it fits your bill -- there are no holds on the thing, just a couple of butter-dish dimples your can smear your tips into, and nothing -- i mean nothing -- for the feet. my buddy in these pics is a solid, solid boulderer if the rock is 40 degrees overhanging; this V3 slab took him a bunch of tries over two days. go figure.
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rbolton
Social climber
The home for...
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Jul 13, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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Jan,
Club?! There's a Club?! Dammit...why doesn't anyone tell
me this sh#t?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 13, 2006 - 04:52pm PT
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well bob, we figured it was because you'd never join any club that would have you as a member.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jul 13, 2006 - 04:58pm PT
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Bob, you missed out because of the maximum height requirement. Good thing there was no minimum height requirement or both of us would have been left out. :p
And why aren't you in The Portal doing fun things? Honey due list got you again?
Bob, do you think the 'Sick Midgets Wall' is slab or thin face? Are we gonna see you in TM in a few weeks?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 13, 2006 - 05:05pm PT
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Me trying to climb hard slabs is like me trying to speek Vietnamese.
In Vietnamese the tone means as much as the consonant and vowel sounds. My friend would teach me a word. I practice, practice, practice. Then I'd try saying it to his mom. She'd look at me blankly. I'd try again. Still no go. And so on. Eventually my friend would say what sounded to me to be exactly the same thing I just said, then his mom would nod in understanding and repeat exactly what I thought I just said, and I'd have no idea what I could do differently to make all sound OK straight from my own mouth.
On hard slabs, my bf will say, put your foot on that good spot. And I will. And he'll say no, on the better part of that spot. And I'll think "???". So I move my foot a bit. No the good spot, and so on. I fall. Then he delicately steps his way up and say, "Did you see where I stepped?" Um...unfortunately, no.
There's also something about climbing with Au-thor-o-thai that I'm reluctant to do when I can't hold on to nothin'.
In conclusion...I think that all slabs are difficult!
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rbolton
Social climber
The home for...
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Jul 13, 2006 - 05:06pm PT
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Jan,
I'm headed to the portal right now. To do some slabbin' as a
matter of fact. And, since no one cares about the sick midgets wall except sick midgets, its a moot point.
Tuolumne in August, babe. Time for mermaids and full contact golf.
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