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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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posters here easily and quickly established a consensus view against "chipping" and vegetation removal in the Park. That strikes me as a good thing, especially for climber-Ranger relations.
Chipping and vegetation removal in the park are already illegal, although perhaps sometimes not easy to enforce. Our views don't change that. It's what we do as a community to prevent such things happening in the first place that matters.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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Our views don't change that.
No, but it will matter to at least some land managers that the community is pretty clearly unified in its views. That's why I'm not as worried as Coz is about the existence of this thread.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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Yep-
The Flyer works, but I tried the home page again...without success.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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1. bernadette should not be shy about participating in a discussion, not just starting one. as chris pointed out, internet boards and their discussions can have very positive results.
2. joshua tree environmentalists take note: the park is overrun with nonnative red brome grass. you can probably thank the mchaney brothers' rustled cattle for making that possible 100 years ago. it's quite happy there, and it has displaced most of the native grasses in many areas. if you stay on the little climber paths, that's real nice, and it keeps it looking sorta wild, except for the little paths and signs all over the place, but what you're not stepping on in most places is red brome grass. dare i say, "big deal"?
3. a little history for you bolt noobs. as the sport of climbing developed (that word) in the 1980s, different ethics developed on either side of the atlantic. i don't know what they do in the british isles nowadays, maybe someone can tell us about that, but during the 80s, when we had our first bolting wars, it was noted that while americans felt no compunction about setting a line of bolts over a blank section of rock, the brits would chip a small hold or two and set nothing for protection. for aficionados of ballsyness, i'd say the brits had more. for aficionados of visual impact, probably tourons don't notice chipped holds as easily as a line of bolts. this controversy is a relative thing.
4. the continental euros who come to josh are used to places with a lot more bolts. i raised the subject of demand for sport routes earlier in this thread and was shouted down by various luminaries who haven't seen fit to continue the discussion. the demand is there, and it's the elephant in the living room, and i think that if todd gordon wants to maintain credibility in this discussion he ought to put more of his cards on the table. i've heard many times, all second-hand, that he's establishing a lot of new routes in many new places and plans to publish them in a guidebook of his own. his ethics appear to be impeccable, but i wonder if what bernadette had to say at the beginning of this thread is directed at him. she'll have to clarify herself if it wasn't.
5. josh's busiest, highest-demand campgrounds are located smack in the midst of the loveliest, surely most environmentally sensitive habitat out there. i'm talking hidden valley, jumbo rocks, indian cove. the decision to do this was done by the government long before it developed its current environmental sensitivity. decommission these campgrounds and restore these natural areas.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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WTF is wrong with you? Josh has several HUNDRED sport routes.
Decommission campgrounds? Sheesh.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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Tony might leave the impression that all the plants in JT were introduced by people and therefore no consideration of them is necessary...
I had posted a lengthy thread on various studies, here's a link to one that specifically discusses JT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1487593&msg=1488903#msg1488903
My first visit to JT was in 1964, there were few climbers, and few campers of any kind... it had a wilderness feeling even with the Boyscouts around, it was a long and wild drive from Claremont CA...
now it is suburbs nearly up to the edge of the park, and huge numbers of people visit from a LA area which is probably grown in population 4 to 5 times since then...
overuse of these areas is a major problem...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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Tony: i raised the subject of demand for sport routes earlier in this thread and was shouted down by various luminaries who haven't seen fit to continue the discussion. the demand is there, and it's the elephant in the living room,
Just because there is demand for a product doesn't mean it must be supplied, let alone in a national park - even if the environment is favourable. There is some bolt/sport climbing in Joshua Tree, and there's lots more within a few hours. For most visitors, they can get to other "sporty" areas as easily as JT.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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As stated by Caughtinside above, Joshua Tree has hundreds and hundreds of genuine sport climbs. Most of them are at moderate grades (5.8 to 5.10+). Most people who climb at Josh with any regularly are aware of this.
Todd has been working on a putting together a Josh Sport Climbing Guide for a couple years (a good guidebook takes time), and with Todd retiring after this year, he should have more time to finish it up. Todd is probably the best person to do this guide as he knows more about most of the new routes than anyone else.
Todd doesn't need to justify himself to the ST audience.
Also, at this point in time (and under the circumstances), I'm not sure that anyone else is under any compunction to illuminate the ST pundits any further than is deemed appropriate.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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I for one would prefer to see the chipped and bolted lines "erased." Using something like the right color of tile grout would fill in the chipped holes, and ditto the scars from pulled bolts.
I'm definitely a "purist" in the "Old School" way. Climbing is done "by fair means", and from the "Ground-up."
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 12, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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Ed,
The Kamp-Knight "Study" was, unfortunately, fatally flawed and would not stand scrutiny -- at least where it compared plant diversity and communities on the cliff (as opposed to the base).
I don't really blame the researchers, but the NPS personnel who helped choose the "control group" (unclimbed cliffs) used in the study. For the most part, the "unclimbed cliffs" that were chosen were not representative or similar in characteristics to cliffs that had (or could have) climbing.
No methodology was used to insure that they were comparing apples to apples, so to speak.
While that seems like an impossible task, it is (and was certainly then) possible to use cliffs that had route possibilities, but were undeveloped. Further, the researches could have also utilized historical (pre-climbing) photographs of now popular climbing rocks to assist in determining whether they historically had plant communities growing on them.
Turns out, that a review of such photographs suggests that little was growing in the cracks and on the ledges -- pre-climbing.
None of this is to say that climbers have not had, and do not continue to have, a negative impact on plant communities at the base (or on cliffs). It is more that the study referenced was poorly designed which impugns the results.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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So I'm curious, how does the NPS observer(s) determine that a route has chipped holds?
The rock is often friable. Flakes and chips routinely break off, typically leaving a small edge at the bottom or side and a larger unweathered area that was beneath. From a distance, and even up close, this can look like chipping if you aren't familiar with the nature of the rock or haven't spent time in other areas with an abundance of actual chipped holds.
Yet in the many hundreds of routes I've climbed here, or even looked at up close, I can count a total of two with actual chipped, manufactured holds. Both established by the same person, both well over 10 years ago and probably longer ago than that.
It just seems like a total non-issue to me...the "chipping" part that is.
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Damn this looks high
Trad climber
Temecula, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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In my very limited experience as a climber, it seems to me that a chipped hold will make the climb easier while most of the naturally occurring 'chipping' makes the climb harder, i.e. a key hold breaks off turning a 9 into a 11a.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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I agree with ECIYA. It is often times difficult to tell a "naturally" broken hold from one benefiting from a hammer blow, etc. Sometimes, chipped holds are evident, sometimes not.
However, you can use circumstantial evidence. If heavy handed techniques were used where not necessary at all (e.g., chopped steps), it is probably fair to say that such individuals would not hesitate to enhance holds on the route (where it would be of much greater "benefit"). As such, you could reasonably conclude that a suspicious hand hold on a route was also enhanced.
As for the other comment, sometimes a naturally broken edge makes a better hold than before, it all depends.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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While that seems like an impossible task, it is (and was certainly then) possible to use cliffs that had route possibilities, but were undeveloped. Further, the researches could have also utilized historical (pre-climbing) photographs of now popular climbing rocks to assist in determining whether they historically had plant communities growing on them.
Turns out, that a review of such photographs suggests that little was growing in the cracks and on the ledges -- pre-climbing.
sketchy, having lived with a researcher of plant ecologies for many years and discussed the details of the research, photographs are of little use to such research as it is not possible to determine what is going on, or not, in the photographs. There is no substitute to actual field work.
While the study may be "flawed" in a legal sense, in a science sense it represents a start to understanding the ecology of cliffs of which relatively little is known. The point of my other thread was to try to enlist, in anyway possible, the access that climbers enjoy with the biological community, limited as it is, interested in studying this particular habitat.
I do not subscribe to the belief that if you let them in they'll ruin everything for climbers... they may very well have good cause to recommend certain areas on cliffs be left alone.
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RtM
climber
DHS
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Mar 13, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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In this case, local climbers have already gone out to the area in question, and "fixed" or righted some of the wrongs. (This was done yesterday, actually;....climbers DO care, and individuals can make an impact and a difference.) Big thanks to the individual(s) who orchestrated this positive action and gesture.
Thanks to these individuals (I think?)! I sincerely hope that these "wrongs" were not "righted" with more wrongs - because two wrongs don't make things right -
Right??!
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Werd
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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Cos writes:and the many non climbing land managers-lurkers could be appalled, for no reason.
No reason? DId you see the steps hacked into the rock? They should be appalled. The whole circus out there is completely unacceptable, and they should take notice. The land managers should also notice that virtually all climbers are against what happened out there. That being said, there will always be illegal bolters and glue-ers, and they are definitely not held with high regard in the climbing community. ¿Sabe?
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RtM
climber
DHS
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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I agree with Russ and Locker - sweeping it under the rug and acting like nothing ever happened is just plain irresponsible "self-governing".
Responsible climbers need to take a stand, publicly, in full view of the Park Service.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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And they are serious problems, indeed. Outrageous, really.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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If the NPS knows how the park is being used, Scott knows how it is being used, and "local climbers" know how it is being used, why should we not know how it is being used?
Just what is going on?
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