Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
|
The human animal has well demonstrated its unlimited ability to combine the good with the bad, whatever those terms may mean. Idolatry, now a semi-popular fad unfortunately gives a very bad name to something that is very good. Our ability to appreciate characteristics possessed by others that we would mimic, had only we the ability.
As to obscure Southern literature (not that I am a fan) we are well served to remember the War, Which one worthy summed up by saying, "Never has a poorer cause been championed by such a great people."
You raise an excellent question whose answer seems to be, "We are what we are and you, sir, shall get what you get."
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
|
can I ask the meta question of whether the form of the question is properly constructed?
the 'should' is a normative question set in the form of a false dichotomy.
whereas maybe we are a society, as jstan suggests, of tolerance and appreciation both.
now mind you, I used to despise the question
"so, what do you do?"
"well, I rock climb."
"no I mean for work."
"why? is that important?"
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
|
I SAW WHAT YOU DID WITH THAT MADE UP EXAMPLE OF REINHOLD MESSNER LOL!
The man was an amazing talent when he climbed. How could one not discuss his achievements?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
|
Regarding your Mt. Deborah reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Harrer
states:
-----
Nazi involvement
Despite claims that he was a member of the Sturmabteilung this was declared false by Harrer in his memoir Beyond Seven Years in Tibet, as he points out that, if already a member he wouldn't have had to apply to join the Nazi Party (NSDAP) when he joined the SS where he held the rank of Oberscharführer (Sergeant). Harrer joined the SS in order to pursue his career in skiing and mountaineering. After his ascent of the Eiger he was photographed with Adolf Hitler but this was common for most athletes and celebrities of the time. After returning to Europe Harrer was cleared of any pre-war crimes and this was later supported by Simon Wiesenthal.[2] Harrer never denied his involvement with the Nazi party but rather instead stated that it was a mistake made in his youth when he had not yet learned to think for himself.
-------------
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
|
We can't decide for others who and what they should or should not admire although we sure do try sometimes.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
|
If I do nothing, am I nothing?
Yarrrrr.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
|
I'm Skully.
I like rocks.
Do YOU like rocks?
Let's rock, then. And the dude will abide.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
|
Now that you have brought up arctic cultures I will recommend, for the second time, a film made by the Inuit.
"The Fast Runner."
And another from scandanavia:
"The Pathfinder"
This last even has climbing in it.
Both stories are pretty clearly one to two thousand years old - at least.
They could be 5000 years old or more.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
|
The Pathfinder (Veiviseren) is based on an ancient north Norse/Sami legend. Undateable. Likewise "The Fast Runner (Atanarjuat)" - an ancient Inuit legend.
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
|
Clint-- Unfortunately, as can happen with Wiki, virtually
all of the important claims in the following paragraph are misleading at best.
Regarding your Mt. Deborah reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Harrer
states:
-----
Nazi involvement
Despite claims that he was a member of the Sturmabteilung this was declared false by Harrer in his memoir Beyond Seven Years in Tibet, as he points out that, if already a member he wouldn't have had to apply to join the Nazi Party (NSDAP) when he joined the SS where he held the rank of Oberscharführer (Sergeant). Harrer joined the SS in order to pursue his career in skiing and mountaineering. After his ascent of the Eiger he was photographed with Adolf Hitler but this was common for most athletes and celebrities of the time. After returning to Europe Harrer was cleared of any pre-war crimes and this was later supported by Simon Wiesenthal.[2] Harrer never denied his involvement with the Nazi party but rather instead stated that it was a mistake made in his youth when he had not yet learned to think for himself.
Gerald Lehner and Der Spiegel found Harrer's Nazi Party application and it documented his earlier membership in the SA. Shown the document and asked if it was his handwriting and signature, Harrer said, "Yes."
I don't have time to scan the photo. You can search Der Spiegel archives or see the photos and read the account in Lehner's zwischen Hitler und Himalaya. The original remains in the Berlin Document Archive.
It's become clear that Harrer lied systematically about his past and about certain aspects of the history of the Eigerwand. He joined the SA and became a sargeant (roughly) at a point when the SA was an active, right-wing terrorist organization involved in the actual murder of numerous Austrian politicians and public figures, actively terrorizing Jews, and helping to turn the DOAV club houses into what on SS officer later called "brown oases." The SA attempted to overthrow the Austrian government and assassinate Dolfuss.
Harrer's claim that he later joined the Nazi party to further his career is absurd-- at the time he joined the SA, it was illegal in Austria. He'd been in the SA five years before he also joined the Nazis. His later claim that his involvement in that Eiger ascent was "apolitical" was also a lie. Rainer Rettner's recent history, Eiger, found and published a long-lost photo of Harrer and his partner at the base, in their tent: It has a Swastika flag flying from the pole.
After the Anschluss, he quickly became an SS officer. Randoms didn't get to join the SS. The SS was reserved for dedicated, ideological Nazis who had proven their credentials over years and were known to Party hardcore.
On November 10, 1938, Krystallnacht, the very first Jewish synagogue to be bombed was the one in Graz, Harrer's hometown. Harrer's memoirs don't talk about that November. No ski trips, cuz the snow wasn't in, and no apparent climbing trips. So what do you suppose Heinrich Harrer, sergeant in the SA, Nazi, and SS officer was doing while his buddies destroyed the synagogue?
Good example, in many ways.
you are what you do. Period-- there is nothing else. But it includes all you do, not just your chosen public exploits.
Heinrich Harrer: geography instructor, champion skier, good rock climber, competent (but not elite) alpinist, right-wing thug, ideological Nazi, SS officer, good prose stylist, so-so golfer, cool guy to have a drink with, celebrity, liar.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
|
Wiki is junk, man. Hearsay.
Give me real facts, anyday.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
|
wiki can be a good place to start. It's usually incomplete, like anything else.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
|
What I heard on the wharf once;
"I am what I yam and that's all that I yam."
|
|
jmap
Social climber
NC
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
|
William Faulkner, opening of second chapter, "The Sound and the Fury"
"When the shadow of the sash appeared on the curtains it was between seven and eight oclock and then I was in time again, hearing the watch. It was Grandfather's and when Father gave it to me he said I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire; it's rather excruciating-ly apt that you will use it to gain the reducto absurdum of all human experience which can fit your individual needs no better than it fitted his or his father's. I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools."
This is not obtuse, nor is it rambling. And, in some way, it seems relevant to the subject which sparked this thread.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
|
If that's obtuse, you're multitasking or something, that is direct poetry. You'll never get Dostoyevsky...
I think it's the beginning of "Intruder in the Dust" where he seems to intoruduce the word, "Dreadlock" for a hairstyle....
|
|
dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
|
I don't see any way that "what you do" does not equal "who you are". For each of us, our actions taken together, without exception, create our effect on the universe - and that effect is "who you are".
Within both my vocation and my elected activities, there are times when I am lazy, and times when I give full effort. I am neither lazy nor hard-working....words most often fail to adequately describe any of us in a complete way. I would bet that even the parents who have the most positive effect on their children are not always "great parents".
I do have a strong belief that too many people give up their "hobbies" (such a poor word) when they have children. Obviously life changes, but if your kids to not see you involved in something that you are passionate about - playing music, climbing rocks, restoring old trucks, whatever it is - how will they learn to pursue things with passion in their own lives?
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 02:45am PT
|
hey there mt10910... say, as to this quote of your:
1-"She said, sure that is what he does, but who is he?"
2-"In the Alaska native culture they always ask where you are from when first meeting because that tells a lot about who you are up here. "
say---that is very interesing... both trains of thoughts.. thanks for the share...
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 02:50am PT
|
Aye.....Folly, a plenty.
Despair? Tasted it. We'll see, JimLad.
Aye, that we will.
I feel like fricken Long John Silver, over here.
Yowza.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Jul 23, 2009 - 04:29am PT
|
"His most famous quote?
"I would have written 15 more novels if it were not for chess.""
Note even close. In fact, I have missed that one.
"Spontaneous human combustion," Crime and punishment.
"Just one thing bothers me," ibid -see Columbo.
"I can see it all from the mouth of a Crocodile."
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!