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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 14, 2007 - 01:41pm PT
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In the state of Utah there is a battle with the public school system over a new Private school voucher program that would give State money to pay for private school. Under the current plan, no money would be taken from the public school system to fund these vouchers.
found this online....
- Next year, Utah will spend $7,500 per public school student—nearly four times the average amount of a Referendum 1 scholarship.
- There are more than 120 private schools across all of Utah. 94% of Utahans live in a county that has a private school.
- The average tuition at a k-8 private school is under $4,000; some even have tuition under $3,000.
- Taxpayers save $5,500 on every child that transfers from a
public school to a private school using a scholarship.
Personally, I (my wife) home school our children, and happily pay our share to the public education system. I can't help but think a little competition might be what the public education system needs.
Why shouldn't parents be able to choose who educates their children?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0322/p13s02-legn.html
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Sep 14, 2007 - 01:48pm PT
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#1 You are required to educate your kid.
#2 The state provides a free education system make the burden of #1 pretty small.
#3 You are allowed to go elsewhere if you want. I believe the tuition is even deductible.
Why should the state, and taxpayers give you money to educate your child? Should we then also pay people NOT to have kids, since they are saving the taxpayers $7500/kid they don't have? I fail to understand.
Personally I think you should not get a tax brake for kids, and get additionally taxed for having >2 kids (exemption for natural multiple births that put you over the 2 kid limit without your intent). Kids cost society a lot of money, and I believe those who choose to have them should shoulder their fair share of that burden.
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jackass
climber
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
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As a teacher in Utah:
-I will be fine allowing my child to attend public school.
-I believe that parents do have the right to decide where their child is educated.
-I believe that while competition is good, private schools need to be held to a certain standard if public funds are going to be used. Currently, many that are sprouting up don't have much accountability and credibility.
-Home schooling is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. You can hurt your kids just as badly as you feel they will be hurt in public schools. Especially as they get older.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:30pm PT
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Moof,
I'll tell you why. As a retired public school teacher of twenty-eight years, the public schools are in the toilet. Sure, there are some good ones; but, on the whole, the system has broken down. The NEA and their locals are partially responsible; however, scotus rulings, attorneys invading the system and other agenda driven groups have turned it into mush. Ergo, you are being cheated by not getting what your tax dollars are supposed to provide. It's become a vast confidence game. A taxpayer should have the right to take their tax dollars, that would otherwise go into the sick public schools, and use those dollars to provide a good education for their children. Also, competition with private schools just might force some significant improvement in public schools. Interestingly enough, there are countries in Western Europe that do this.
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Sep 14, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Should parents have a choice, yes.
Does removing students from schools relieve taxpayers. Not really.
Schools in Utah are funded per pupil. When students are removed, the cost to run the school does not decrease. It just results in fewer funds in the lowest funded school system in the country.
I do remember hearing a wise educator state "should parents have a choice in their child's education. Yes. Do parents always know what is best for their children. No."
If you home school your children and do a good job at it, you are one of a few. I personally believe that most parents do not have the education, expertise, resources, and ability to fully educate a child.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
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I'm a public school teacher, and I fully support the voucher program. Competition works. The public schools have a monopoly on education funds; without competition, there's no motivation to improve. Just look at the DC public schools, which spends over $13,000/student, well above neighboring districts. Seriously, if you knew you would always receive your salary (with appropriate cost of living increases) even though you never met the standards established for your position, how hard would you work? I have a feeling most of us would be spending a lot more time on the rocks and, for me personally, a lot less time grading essays.
Trust me, when teachers and administrators understand that their jobs depend on certifiable progress, they'll get serious. I predict that school systems will lose a significant number of kids to private schools, meaning many teachers/administrators will not be needed. The rest will improve if only out of a desire to survive. Eventually, enrollment will return to pre-voucher levels as private schools become much more selective/expensive and parents realize that their children can once again get a quality education in the public schools.
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
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Don't home-school your kids. They'll turn out socially incompetent. I've known some weird weird people who were homeschooled.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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Yea... well... I was a public school teacher for 29 years... almost any school is a good school... only the students have the power to make it a rewarding experience. I have had students in the same class who have gone on to get a full ride at MIT and all the service academies... in the same class were students who went on to be criminals and whose lives were lost...same school, same class, same content... they made the choice.
All this test stuff and accountablity are just so much politics. I have monitored tests for years where some students really try to take the test with the best of their ability and others just mark the blanks and are done in 5 minutes... but the one who gets a 20% (guessing odds) scores are averaged in with someone who got 90% and you get an average of 55% ... does that really mean that the school should get a failing score and all the ramifications it involves? I dont think so... So when one says the schools are going down the drain I think they should say that some students have chosen to go down the drain. To say that teachers are somehow responsible is just an easy way to make a very complex problem look simple and an easy way out of making a real analysis of the situation.
The problem with vouchers is that those schools aren't tested or evaluated under the same rules that the public schools must function... thus we are constantly reading about Charter schools that are under investigation for misuse of funds etc. They, like private schools, have little scrutany and oversight and they don't have to hire certified instructors and thus can pay half the salary.... on the other hand the public schools are under a microscope... when was the last time you read about a public school where it was having to close because the administration stole the funding?
Another thing... voucher schools can just expell any student that is not meeting the schools requirements... no problem... public schools cant do that and have to deal with every student, not just some chosen ones...
Plus many of the private schools mission is to indroctinate students, who are intellectually unable to defend themselves, into a particular religion. I dont think taxpayer $$$ should be used to support any particular religion and its efforts to recrute more members...
If a parent wants to send their kids to a private school then they should have to pay for it.
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Sep 14, 2007 - 04:06pm PT
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Thats called "separation of church and state" an American ideal.
And it is BS that voucher programs don't negatively impact public school funding. Directly or indirectly they do.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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moof, "Should we then also pay people NOT to have kids".
Maybe.
"Kids cost society a lot of money, and I believe those who choose to have them should shoulder their fair share of that burden."
How did you decide whose choice costs society more? Mine for having kids that might turn out to be nothing more than sh#t pumpers, that live modestly and play hard. Or anothers decision to not have kids because they get a tax break. How long will our society be around if somebody's not having and educating our children?
"Home schooling is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. You can hurt your kids just as badly as you feel they will be hurt in public schools. Especially as they get older."
Thanks "Jackass"! LOL That was funny to say. No, really though, I appreciate the concern.
s.o., "Do parents always know what is best for their children. No."
While this may be accurate, (key word always) I word argue, it's not very wise. It suggests that educators are better suited for this role. I passionately disagree with this! That is a slope we don't want to start down.
"Schools in Utah are funded per pupil. When students are removed, the cost to run the school does not decrease. It just results in fewer funds in the lowest funded school system in the country."
Not under this program. No funds are pulled from the public SS. Funds for the private SS are pulled from somewhere else.
"If you home school your children and do a good job at it, you are one of a few. I personally believe that most parents do not have the education, expertise, resources, and ability to fully educate a child."
It's a sad thing when parents aren't smart enough to teach a high school education. Do most parents have the ability to focus a room full of 25 teenagers that don't want to be there? No! Sh!t, most parents can't focus there own kids and then they send them to school to be educated with your. Resource? Trust me there is a lot of resources available to the home schooler.
I feel that if more of the parents that are dedicated to the education and development of the children would home school, it would relieve some of the burden on a "flailing" public school system, and the teachers within it. Lets be real here. If you really think it's harder for a loving mother to teach her children better that a teacher with 24 other children pulling on her, then passing notes and latter passing pills, you've got to be kidding.
My wife comes from a family were she is the 5th child and the first to graduate from high school. Her four older sibling all dropped out and got on with there education. One is a Chemical Engineer, one is an Electrical Engineer, one is a Biologist, and one is the owner of a successful Hummer/ ATV tour Business.
Nate, "Don't home-school your kids. They'll turn out socially incompetent. I've known some weird weird people who were home schooled."
LOL, I don't think it should be done by those just looking for an excuse so they don't have to leave the house or come out of the swamp.
I fully support public education, and I help out by not burdening them with my children.
Good points elcap pics, I don't think vouchers should be used for religious based schools either.
Riotch, "And it is BS that voucher programs don't negatively impact public school funding. Directly or indirectly they do."
Negatively? How do you know that? Sure there will be some growing pains but in my mind the goal is to improve public education not abandon it.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 14, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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The charter school mess had nothing to do with education. It was all about religion.
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Sep 14, 2007 - 06:01pm PT
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No_One
"Schools in Utah are funded per pupil. When students are removed, the cost to run the school does not decrease. It just results in fewer funds in the lowest funded school system in the country."
Not under this program. No funds are pulled from the public SS. Funds for the private SS are pulled from somewhere else.
You should research how the schools are funded. In Utah,the legislature appropriates a set amount of funds for public education. A board then figures out what they consider to be the awarded amount per student per district. This is approximately $2500.00 The funds for the voucher program are taken from this pot.
"If you home school your children and do a good job at it, you are one of a few. I personally believe that most parents do not have the education, expertise, resources, and ability to fully educate a child."
It's a sad thing when parents aren't smart enough to teach a high school education. Do most parents have the ability to focus a room full of 25 teenagers that don't want to be there? No! Sh!t, most parents can't focus there own kids and then they send them to school to be educated with your. Resource? Trust me there is a lot of resources available to the home schooler.
If you can show me someone who can competently teach: English, Algebra, Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Health (up to date information), Welding, Geography, Geology, Music, Art, three foreign languages, Computers Literacy, Accounting, Business, Cabinetmaking, American and World History, Psychology, Sociology, and a lot more, then I would encourage them to home school their children.
So far, I have not met that person, and most education research says the most of learning is social (things we don't test).
Have public schools declined. Yes, but they still are not that bad. "we cannot keep up with other nations" is a bogus argument. What other country provides education for everyone through 12 grades? Most countries have multiple tracks and we compare all high school students against those who are college bound in other countries.
Right on elcap-pics
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2007 - 01:41am PT
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s.o., "You should research how the schools are funded. In Utah,the legislature appropriates a set amount of funds for public education. A board then figures out what they consider to be the awarded amount per student per district. This is approximately $2500.00 The funds for the voucher program are taken from this pot."
You sound like you know more about this than I do. So what do they mean by, "When a student leaves a public school, the legislation requires the state to continue to supply that public school's district the portion of the per-pupil funding that is over and above the state-wide average voucher amount, and to continue doing so for a period of five years following the transfer or until the student was scheduled to graduate."
"If you can show me someone who can competently teach: English, Algebra, Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Health (up to date information), Welding, Geography, Geology, Music, Art, three foreign languages, Computers Literacy, Accounting, Business, Cabinetmaking, American and World History, Psychology, Sociology, and a lot more, then I would encourage them to home school their children."
Why would you hold a mother that is taking responsibility for her children, to such a high standard, before you will except what she is doing, is honorable, good, and right? I'd challenge you to find me one high school grad that is competent in all those subjects. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's because the teachers aren't competent, It's because kids don't want to learn while they're in school. Most home school kids I know start on the college general ed classes at age 16. My nephew has already started his, and he's 15.
"So far, I have not met that person, and most education research says that most of learning is social (things we don't test)."
Social? It's to bad so many parents depend on school for providing so much of their kids social development. School should be for teaching all those subjects you listed above. In my opinion a lot of what kids get from school is negative.
My 7 year old is on her third year of dance. She played coach pitch baseball, and soccer. My 5 year old played soccer, and is loving karate. We have neighborhood kids, cousins, and church. We love to climb, camp, hike and swim. Were on lake Powell about 15 to 20 days a year. Were always around all kinds of people. My kids love to hang out with Piton Ron for hells sake! I don't thinks they will lack on the social skills. LOL
Sorry for turning this into a home school thread. I just want to be clear that I support public schools and admire and respect the teachers. Both my parents are teachers and just retired this year from the San Bernardino school district. I know what a thankless job it can be. I believe the biggest problem facing our school system is the parents.
Thanks for the discussion.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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Honestly I don't know much about home schooling but from what I have seen SOME parents seem just to want clones of themselves with all of THEIR VALUES AND INTERESTS passed on to their kids. The kids get subjects stressed that the parents feel comfortable teaching and the rest of the subjects get taught at a lower level. A student should be able to get some new ideas to think about ... ideas that maybe the parents don't always agree with.. I just worry that getting information from the same person or two people is not good for individual growth... what if I was teaching my kids at home but was not very good at math and was very good at english... which would be the natural thing to stress... english or math? I think there would not be much of a problem teaching the kids when they are young and in the primary grades but to tackle high school cirriculum in this day and age would be a daunting task for anyone!! Sooner or later the student will have to deal with the so called "real world" and I wonder if home schooling is a very good preparation for it... Perhaps someone on this site who was home schooled can relate their experiences to us so we can better understand the situation.... Thanks Tom
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Sep 15, 2007 - 03:18am PT
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No One,
I am not criticizing what you and your wife do, I just struggle to see how the same opportunities for learning can be provided by an individual as compared to a staff of "experts" (the term expert is loosely applied here). I have known several students who have been home schooled, and have seen various outcomes from socially inept to leaders, and educationally incompetent to well educated. I have even read of educational theories suited for home schooling. Try "Thomas Jefferson Education." It is a good read and I would definitely recommend it even if I don't agree with all of what is claimed.
I agree, parents should not rely on public education to provide social development for their children. I agree that there are negative influences in public education, but I don't believe they outweigh the opportunities that are provided there. Simply a matter of opinion.
As far as funding for vouchers goes, I would be interested in how a school claims their FTE (full time equivalent) for students not attending their school. It has been a while since I looked at where the funds for the voucher program are coming from, but it was my impression that they were from the same pot as public ed. Perhaps it's time for me to start researching and get caught up on what is going on there.
One other question, can parents who home school their children claim the voucher funds? I wonder if a parent in poverty could claim $15,000 a year to home school five kids. If this is possible, I could see the voucher program being taken advantage of and children getting an even worse deal if their parents are not committed to educating them.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2007 - 03:32am PT
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s.o., :One other question, can parents who home school their children claim the voucher funds? I wonder if a parent in poverty could claim $15,000 a year to home school five kids. If this is possible, I could see the voucher program being taken advantage of and children getting an even worse deal if their parents are not committed to educating them."
No, the vouchers are not good for home school. Damn! Could be nice supplemental income. LOL
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Sep 15, 2007 - 09:57am PT
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Some of the "worst" educated kids I've met came from private/religious schools. Those schools aren't held to NCLB standards, like the public schools. They usually don't test at all.
Home schooled kids are kinda hit and miss. Many of them suck gravely at math...
It's 10 am, does your kid know their times table?
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Sep 15, 2007 - 10:44am PT
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BOOKWORM has made a good point about competition. The problem however is the vast majority of private schools that would be funded under a vocuher program are religious schools. Utilizing state funds for religious education violates the separation of church and state. Home schooling and the voucher propram are two separate issues.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 15, 2007 - 10:55am PT
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Escaping the thread drift...this is a topic that interests me directly, as I have five year old daughter and live in UT. IMO, there are two issues with UT public schools. One is funding issue. Because UT has relatively large numbers of kids without having proportionally greater taxes, the schools end up under funded with poor student-teacher ratios. Again IMO, fixing this would be better than funding private schools.
Second is the LDS issue. In many public schools there is a very strong LDS influence. There are seminaries for the kids right next door. I'm not sure I want my daughter, who is Asian, and thus already a minority in lily-white UT, to be placed in double-minority status because she is shunned by the LDS majority at a public school.
All this sucks, as I feel like I got a very good education at a public school, and don't want to feel like I need to send my kid to private school.
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