Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Keystone
Trad climber
Page,AZ
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 7, 2017 - 11:42am PT
|
The top paragraph is a summary of the yammering that follows it:
The new generation has found my areas/routes that I have kept hush for many moons and is Super Project Mountaintopo Facetubing them. Should I archive my work for the sake of history and make it public or just fade off into the sunset and stop being so possessive?
My whole climbing life was spent putting up first accents and developing new areas in Northern Arizona/Southern Utah. I always viewed cragging and climbing established routes as a sort of masterbatory practice for the real deal. When I was a youngster I always dreamed of publishing my doings in climbing magazines but maturity and good set of friends set me straight and I have held onto my accomplishments, only disseminating them by word of mouth. I did this because I have watched what happens to quiet places when they become publicized and more importantly because of humility. I think it is very natural to want to tell others what you have accomplished and to desire validation from peers but I have always overcome that urge by holding strong to the belief that climbing was a personal journey that was meant to stay out in the wilderness. In other words, I climbed it for the joyous challenge and not to prove that I could. But now I see on Super Mountain Facetube Project a kid posting my routes and giving them his names and naming whole areas that I named 15 years ago. It puts a burr under my saddle and gets my hackles all raised. I messaged the kid and in a very kind way, tried to explain the beauty of obscurity but it had no effect…… Now there are youtube videos of him climbing renamed routes that I did over a decade ago.
Now I ask myself, “Is it about history and information or about ego”. How would this kid know that he is renaming all my sh#t if I haven’t chronicled it? I have read the dog and pony show on this here Taco and I know that no matter what I say to the new generation I will always be an old traditional curmudgeon who farts dust and grumps about the way things used to be. My intent is not to change his mind. My intent is not to call his ethics into question? I am not holier than thou. My way is not the only way, he has every right in the world to do what it is he is doing and I respect that, even though I disagree with it.
So….If I was to draw up all my routes/areas what would be the best way to publically archive them? A book ? Articles? The Taco Stand? Should I just post it on my blog that hides in obscurity in the dark web? None of these would be used to make money. I would donate it if it did. And none of it would be considered that great by the community, I was never very strong and most of the hundreds of routes I climbed would be considered choss.
My biggest worry would be being thought of as a chuffer, spraylord or braggart. Should I publish something using a pen name?
-----OR
Should I just humbly let it go and worry about catching a 25” Rainbow on my flyrod so that I can post it to the Very Large Trout Lover's Thread? I have not one bit of a problem bragging about big fish!!
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
You wear camo for fishing?
Juss' kidding.
My opinion is that your routes should stay as you did them.
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
|
|
kick his ass seabass!
i would set it straight on mp and ensure that i was remembered as that young guy who is way too crusty for his age and climbs subpar junky lines ad infinitum.
case in point:
i will publicly disgrace myself accosting whomever publishes as the FA of this junky mostly walkup slab that is visible from pavement. i'm talking wall of text whincy whinging appeals to The Ethics Gendarmerie, getting myself beat up by the dude after creeping on his house, etc. ;-)
photographic proof is the ticket though.
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
Mountain Project is your best bet. If you have no ego in this, then who cares, let it go. If you would like to have recognition for your first ascents, then by all means, you are deserving. Its when people attempt to stand in both camps then it makes them look bad.
|
|
guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
|
|
Im the opposite from Kris.....
Post up your stuff, the locations, the names of the roots and the bolt count......
If you don't tell.... somebody will come along at some future time, date....
and add bolts and dream up names and post false info...
but it is really up to you....
nice trout
|
|
Killer K
Boulder climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
In my experience posting in the comments section on each route on Mountain Project as it comes up with FA names and dates along with route names and old pics is the easiest way to prove to the younger generation that you are legit. The administrators are usually pretty good about fixing it.
Otherwise let it go
|
|
Friend
climber
|
|
I agree with Studly.
I had this same conversation recently with a friend who has done a lot of climbing and exploring in a particular area but preferred to keep it quiet. It is now on Mountainproject and the irony is, the guy who posted all the routes barely climbs. Many of his posts have inaccuracies and question marks because he has not done the climbs and never will. He's never met my friend either, but he knows it bugs him and gets off on that.
My own solution, with boulder problems where I'm pretty sure I've done the FA, is to post on Mountainproject but with minimal beta. I'll share a photo and short description but I avoid maps, GPS coordinates and detailed descriptions. Hopefully that straddles the line between finding/naming a climb, and spraying rabidly.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
I think it is very natural to want to tell others what you have accomplished and to desire validation from peers.
One COULD etch initials at the start of the route with the date of the FA.
Maybe a simple topo, too?
Petroglyphs ensure rockognition from peers and from future peers as well.
Can one have future peers?
I cannot peer into the future, but I'd surely recognize rock art depicting a dude doing a Gaston to a small nubbin of pleasing showiness to describe the route, also.
But it ain't cool to deface Ma in any way, shape, or form, so that Route ID method sucks, as any peerist ought to know.
So just go load the dude's tank with sugar one night.
--Lord Chugger the Rock Hugger
|
|
Keystone
Trad climber
Page,AZ
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
|
The issue I have with the Supertopo and Mountain Project is that they don't allow for a lot of artistic freedom. I've always thought that if I ever spilled the beans it would be complete with entertaining writing and quality photographs. But I also appreciate that the two sites have become the library of climbing routes these days.
Ksolem, I killed a buck, caught a salmon and climbed a big wall in that there camo jacket. Having versatile equipment is important for someone with my income.
|
|
Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
|
|
Those who didn't report, could have.
You had a choice to document your history. You didn't. Now that someone else is doing it, you wish you had.
Your problem is not with the person doing it now. It's regret over your own past choice.
Basically, you want to have had your cake (secret FAs) and have eaten it too (present recognition of past FAs).
But the past is gone. Go get a new cake.
|
|
little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
|
|
sorry to inform you dude, but that's my fish! I first caught it like a decade ago.
|
|
Keystone
Trad climber
Page,AZ
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
|
Those who didn't report, could have.
You had a choice to document your history. You didn't. Now that someone else is doing it, you wish you had.
Your problem is not with the person doing it now. It's regret over your own past choice.
Basically, you want to have had your cake (secret FAs) and have eaten it too (present recognition of past FAs).
But the past is gone. Go get a new cake
Oplopanax - Well put and I agree with you. But when you say new cake... Well this kid is doing routes at one of the boulder fields I helped develop. A very small sliver of my cake. I still have a lot of cake that I baked left to share. I guess seeing the problem I did on Youtube with a new name kinda put a fire under my ass.
And little Z - You are funny - thanks for the laugh!
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
|
|
Its not about cake and eating it too. That implies that there was a demand in the past for the line's info making the omissions somehow meaningful.
The 'decision' at the time isn't a decision, but either an intentional act or complete non-issue.
If an intentional act, keeping an area on the down low isn't a blocker to later correcting history.
Post up your routes, FA info, and correct the history.
If you want to restore routes, that's another matter, but a later climber is often willing to restore once they know. If they never know, then they never restore. You can also elect to leave the new bolts in.
Options are available. It's not just A and B choices.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
Sounds like your ego cares at least a little bit or you wouldn't have posted here. You can either try to get credit for something that might not make a big difference in your life at this point, or give the gift of joy to the young whippersnapper rediscovering all this stuff like it's brand new.
Or you can give us a gift by sharing some stories and pics, and take your credit while yer at it?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
|
|
Keystone,
Your peers on the Taco stand have shared some real wisdom with you here, but I especially like Tami's take. My dos centavos is this: climbing the routes originally was an act of creativity, and writing about them now is also an act of creativity. Go for it. Some of us old poops would very much enjoy bearing witness to all of your creativity. Whatever you choose, it's all good.
Cheers
Also wanted to post a shoutout to DMT and Kingtut for very thoughtful replys.
Now, on to being a brat;
Not sayin' where this took place, but photographic proof my chickies topped out on their first problem.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
What to do?How Much Is To Much? When Is Any To Much
What determines? high quality ? difficulty ? density ? Need ! (. !)
What Gets Turned Into A Chalkboard'?]
Do you like the rock looking fresh ~ un-chalked?,
I DO !
When I was around active zones, I preached a style based in the leave no trace.
Then, as masses of climbers were on the horizon, it became clear that it was necessary
to focus heavily on the importance of hidden / low visual impact- practices .
As more personal opinion based on experience with Trapp Rock And Gunks Quartzite,
I'm positive, keeping a lowest possible profile, using as little as possible,
to no Chalk is the best way to go.
Avoid the chalkboard'd effect for as long as possible. Always clean off your
holds before and after Clean off as much chalk as possible,
never leave Tic Marks.
A single heavily painted hold, glows, and may be acceptable / wondered at - by a non-climber,
(Some what less tolerated/acceptable is line after line
of tic'd & white'd-out edges, up corners, faces & scoops of rock.)
Some ( cordless, places - mostly )
Places It should be obvious, & - shared access demands, shape development tactics.
Other places IT Would Be Clearly Wrong.
Still othe places ?!
( West-Stronghold!?, Mount Alice ? )
let you know. . . . . . .
-'The Skull With The Pipe' -appeared after I failed to clean the chalk from the hold left of center, a body length from the top.
so no one but one other person has been here in 20 yrs
I ask myself every time I go will this be the time?thirsty for chalk.
I've aided out some of the cracks on rups, they will go free but never by me. . .
I'm still not telling[photoid=
but I throw the pictures up around here all the time.
[photoid=
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
Bottom line. Public land. You own it. So does everyone else, just as much.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
The problems arise when the once lost in the woods is now in full view from the highway.
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
|
|
I'm in favor of getting the information out where people can see and read about it. Include pictures and as much as you can remember. It's history that should not be rewritten.
Great line.
"I have read the dog and pony show on this here Taco and I know that no matter what I say to the new generation I will always be an old traditional curmudgeon who farts dust and grumps about the way things used to be."
Erik
|
|
Keystone
Trad climber
Page,AZ
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
|
I am grateful that all of you would take the time to give me your well thought out response. Thank you!!
Dingus, I totally respect what you have written and that is a big reason I have not publicized in the past but there is something about that Youtube video that just got me riled. I mean Royal had Yosemite, why would he bother with a scruffy little boulder field along the road. What do you think he would have said if someone took credit for the Salathe'?
And by the way, I am not just talking about chossy bouldering areas. A few of my routes and areas aren't too shabby. They are my "Salathe'"
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!