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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:34am PT
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Good post, Matt. Thanks!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:47am PT
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How do we know any of this is really true?
"truth"out .org is the same bunch who "reported" Karl Rove had been indicted not so long ago, which was, in fact, a lie.
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Nohea
Trad climber
Aiea,Hi
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Oct 23, 2006 - 02:07am PT
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Folks I love this as a climbers site, we have climbing history among us. To use Pat Tillman for a political purpose is sad, his brother chose to do so. But then again I really hate politics.
Very Proud to have served,
william
Yes I Edited my comment
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Degaine
climber
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Oct 23, 2006 - 05:45am PT
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Hey Nohea,
I read it twice, saw no mention specifically of Republicans. Projecting a little, aren’t we now?
He seems disgusted with the whole lot of it: Democrat compliance as well as the compliance of the citizens, among other things.
I find his commentary pertinent, especially given what he’s been through. Maybe you find it irrelevant, but it’s his point of view, pure and simple, agree or don’t but try not to turn this into another “our side their side” polarized discussion – ESPECIALLY when it’s pretty clear he’s addressing us all.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 23, 2006 - 05:49am PT
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William, I understand your feelings, but if this is indeed the writing of Kevin Tillman, then what is wrong with posting it on this site? Is Matt really trying to score ‘political’ points at the cost of Pat Tillman’s memory?
Perhaps Matt is trying to score one up on Fattrad and the other right-twits on this forum. Perhaps.
But perhaps also the voice of people like Kevin Tillman should be heard and what these people have to say should be shouted from the rooftops to avoid further madness.
I think that the one sentence that ‘rang in my ears’ was the following:
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
Though the following sentence also strikes a chord.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people.
I, for one, did not vote for the policies of the current administration, but as an American, I am being tainted by them.
By listening and reflecting on what people like Kevin Tillman has to say, and then taking such reflections and turning them into action, perhaps young American soldiers and innocent civilians won’t have to die.
Perhaps.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 23, 2006 - 11:13am PT
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good post matt.
i am halfway reading thru Bob Wodwards "State of Denial". all i can say is that with the leadership we currently have, it is simply astounding that we are doing as good as we are in any arena (Iraq, economy, etc.). note that i didnt say we are doing good, rather if this book is any indication, then we are lucky things arent worse.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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stay the course there locker!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:32pm PT
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Fattrad, your last sentence is asinine. At least, that's the way I see it. I've never seen any posts from Matt that would indicate your assertion. Engage the brain before you engage your fingers on the keyboard.
The Big Picture, eh? Amazing how so many Americans are missing seeing the big picture. They must not be watching enough Faux News. Probably listen to NPR instead. Sheesh, dummies.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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fatty, et al,
You know many STers, and most people I know, who are mostly centrist or at least moderate, DO see the big picture. Saying we don't is BS, do you know that? Do you know that's just a stupid line/excuse?
You think you change the picture in the middle east by force, but do you think the Islamist extremists could change the way we live and think by force? It's stupid to think we can force them into our way of lives, as stupid is at is to think they can force us.
We have to act just. Maybe you missed some important moral lessons in your upbringing. Maybe I was lucky studying marshal arts at an early age. Violence is a last resort. You have every right to defend yourself in any way possible when attacked, e.g. Afghanistan. You don't have the right to "pre-emptive" attacks, e.g Iraq. And then when it was proved Iraq was not threat to us they rationale was changed to "promoting democracy".... by force. Wait, aren't they trying to promote Islam by force according to you? Isn't that wrong?
When someone hits you, you hit back. But if you think somone's going to hit you, so you hit first... Guess what, you drew first blood. You are in the wrong. Our president was wrong and he and you can't admit that. His actions and your support of them are unfair, stupid, and are creating more hatred that leads to more terrorists.
I'm not for pulling out of Iraq immediately, because Bush started a war, screwed it up, and now Iraq is a FAR greater threat to us than it was before we invaded. Now we've got to clean up Bush's mess. And part of that should be an apology, we (the US, but led by Bush and neo-cons) were wrong.
added:
Osama et al attacked us because of our one-sided support for Isreal and military bases on their holy land.
The idea that some extremist nut jobs could force the rest of the world to their radical view of Islam is laughable. You talk about it like they have the power that Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union did during their hayday.
The only threat we face is random terrorist acts. We can't stop those even if we did give up all our freedom or ideals (which I'm not willing to do for something that has FAR, FAR less chance of hurting me compared to a car accident, or being struck by lightning.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2006 - 02:50pm PT
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"You think you change the picture in the middle east by force, but do you think the Islamist extremists could change the way we live and think by force? It's stupid to think we can force them into our way of lives, as stupid is at is to think they can force us."
exactly right.
fatty-
just like i said, you don't like hearing it from him. so now you got nothing to say, on-account-a how you are a guttless arm-chair chicken-hawk, and so all you can do is to attack me?
bottom line is that you would just assume we continue to fight some huge and continuous "religious war", just so long as it's not you, not your family, and not anyone you know or love out there doing the fighting, or being killed.
well guess what, i think your position is born from the perspective of an arab hating jewish reactionary (not to be confused w/ the perspective of a typical jewish or jewish american-individual), rather than an internationally savvy american patriot w/ america's best interests at heart.
edit-
re: "That picture is Islamic religious extremists who want to spread a single religion and the intolerance that goes with it."
nevermind that your approach demonstrably invigorates that cause and it's popularity within the arab world in general.
"Ask the gay community in Saudi, Syria, Iran about freedom of expression"
yet another entirely disingenuous argument for the bushco "[religious] war on terror".
aks yourself:
*how tollerant are those that typically make that argument?
(not very)
*how likely is the US military occupation of any arabic country to act as a catalyst for moderation of that country's (or region's) social norms?
(not very)
*to what degree is the native population's acceptance of homosexuality (or women's equality and individual human rights, for that matter) a priority of our forces of occupation in iraq or afganistan?
(not at all)
*and to what degree does a military occupation of any country (arab or otherwise) inspire the occupied country to adapt and accept the social values of the occupying country?
(not at all)
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Oct 23, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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countdown till fatty posts that he did serve his country by working as a reserve cop in CA, 5, 4, 3, 2,...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 23, 2006 - 03:48pm PT
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The best way to change is from within.
The best way to change a country's policies is not by outsiders coming in, but within, by the people.
You of all people, a reporter, should know that only today's blood and gore sells papers.
Jeff, while I have worked on national newspapers in Britain and Ireland - both broadsheet and tabloids - and can tell you some stories of editorial decisions, your statement is not entirely true. Yes sensationalism sells, Hearst knew that with his (and others such as Pulitzer) Yellow Press, helping to whip up anti-Spanish fervor and get us into the Spanish-American War.
There is still a lot of good journalism out there - and I'll admit not only in the center but on the left and right. It is up to people to be discerning and not just let the news wash over them. Being a citizen in a democracy also means taking responsibility to keeping informed of current affairs and politics.
People have to recognize spin, disinformation and misinformation, and they can’t make excuses for ignorance.
I still think the Fourth Estate is the watchdog of society, even if a lot of the media is controlled by corporations and multinationals. It isn’t perfect, and there is work to do, but there is good journalism out there and responsible journalists.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Oct 23, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2006 - 04:14pm PT
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"Only a severe disruption of their societies can create the catalyst for change."
when you actually pay attention to fatguy, he is even more ridiculous than he at first appears!
that is an example of the clearly irrational neocon-speak giberish that has no foundation in truth whatsoever. that assertion is not supported historically, cannot be defended logically or intuitavely, and is the desperate claim of a person or group that prefers war as an option to any other form of engagement.
history in fact shows that cross cultural battles in the middle east are anything but catalysts for moderation of societies.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 04:33pm PT
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I recently read a book. This book really unsettled me. It was written many moons ago: "The Moon is Down" by Steinbeck. It's a short and engaging read. It's about people in the British Isles (I think) invaded by Germans in WWII. It outlines occupation and what they have to do to escape it. You know what they do? The occupied resort to terrorism.
I totally didn't know what I was going to be reading, I didn't read into it, but the parallels are uncanny. It's scary.
There's an article in _Harper's_ this issue about a Young Republican convention in DC. That scares me too.
I see the big picture. I see that the conservatives are no longer conservative. There's no more absense of government, there's push for parental government. It's partisanship, it's fear of the other.
It sickens me. It's a mentality that's spread to every aspect of our lives, whether we're aware of it or not. The more I look, the more I see it.
Was it always like this? Fifty years ago, was it like this, too?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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1) perhaps you are unclear on just whom i was refering to?
2) i know where i would rank the valor of either Tillman brother, as compared to the likes of your fat-chickenhawk-ass
(or where i would rank john kerry, for that matter)
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 05:03pm PT
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fattrad-"And I'm not sure Kevin Tillman qualifies as a "hero". I admire him for serving his country on a very difficult mission, but did he earn the Medal of Valor? or single handily capture an Afghan town from the Taliban. We throw out terms like greatest and hero very loosely now a days. And the military has been known to be very generous with awards, John Kerry got his for minor wounds. "
there's so many things wrong with this post, I don't even know where to begin.
You're a fat Republican financial adviser who's never had the balls to serve your country in the line of fire, and yet you have the nerve to spew this crap?
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Oct 23, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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Fatty, Don't mix your medal'fores
Sure Kerry's Purple Heart's were for relatively minor injuries but what about his Silver and Bronze Stars? Pretty heroic to me.
pc
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 05:26pm PT
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And to imply that soldiers who come home without a scratch aren't somehow heroic is insulting. My father fought in no less than three wars, and "only" received some shrapnel in his neck while in Korea. But he spent years dealing with the psychological pain of those wars, as I'm sure most veterans do.
I'll bet a six pack that you, fatty, have a yellow ribbon on your car. Oh, the hipocracy.
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