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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Jun 20, 2014 - 08:48am PT
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like a liquid batholith,
which adheres to adjacent domains
and coheres within its matrix,
and which dutifully surrenders
to the forces of differential pressure
in its attaining a pause along its journey,
we, as climbers, are are geologic-like:
a biological force chasing low pressure
through ascent, only to
be eroded down by other fluids
seeking their own stasis.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 08:51am PT
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Ed I think of myself as staunchly traditional and have put up routes in the best possible style that you describe above, but I also have to admit that there has been many many great crags and whole climbing areas that have been developed in the complete opposite of that style. Personally I like to do both. Furthermore, I think there is room for both styles in this world. Most of the places that have been developed are in areas where the ground up style did not work very well and there were vast resources that have been untapped. Commanding that your particular style is the only way simply is not going to work out in the places where there is much more rock than people and the wild has not been ruined by the NPS with their roads, hotels, pay for everything amenities. I personally think the bolting has gone way too far in many places, but the staunchly traditional crowd takes it too far as well. Go to a place like Ten Sleep and you will see tons of bolted beautiful cracks with bolts less than body length apart than you can shake a stick at. I for many years just drove through and never climbed there, but last year Jack and I went and we had a great time and most of the bolted cracks could be climbed but rarely or almost never would be and they could have a junk, obscure climbing area, instead what they have is world class loved by almost everyone that goes there. I think most of the staunchly traditional areas have been well defined and respected for the most part at least in the lower 48 and will continue to stay that way. Hey even some of the biggest rap bolters in this area have been putting up ground up traditional routes in the needles lately to great applause. Just my two cents.
If everyone would have only done things one way we would be lacking a lot as a climbing community.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 20, 2014 - 08:58am PT
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Only trying to get in on the first page so that later, when I have something of value to add (don't hold yer breath that me or anyone else for that matter will have anything of value not already said and vehemently argued 30-40 times previously), it will be here via edit instead of 500 pages back in some vitriol.
IN BABY!!! ANOTHER BOLT DEBATE HURRICANE IS FORMING!!!
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SicMic
climber
across the street from Marshall
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Jun 20, 2014 - 08:59am PT
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My best first ascents were free-solo first ascents.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:01am PT
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Couchmaster, when there are 500 posts, does anybody read the first page?
Will anybody know that you have changed your post?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:03am PT
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When did many belays get fixed in mostly tradtional area? At Devils Tower and many other "trad araes" belays are fixed on crack routes and it makes the commitment level to go wwwwaaaay down. Many the first pitches on routes become ultra classic because they are good down low and allow one to only do a pitch or two with out having to commit to finishing the route which may be long or chossy above.
Why no outcry on this?
I have friends that will chop bolts if not done in the style they like but they would never chop the anchor bolts on El Matador which were installed in a way not much different.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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It is not the best style with which to establish sport routes.
you're saying it is not possible to put up sport routes in this style?
or that no one has figured out how to do it in this style yet?
you're making a statement about possibility, I think, or are you defining sport climbing as requiring a particular style.
If someone put up a sport route in this style, would it be a sport route?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:07am PT
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The interesting thing here is whether or not we will admit to putting up routes in less than best style....
I've participated in many first ascents, some of them adhere to the "best style" definition, but many do not.
I aspire to doing first ascents in "the best style"
I AM NOT SAYING THAT EVERY FIRST ASCENT MUST BE DONE IN THE BEST STYLE
but I am saying that we know what the best style is...
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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If someone did put up a sport route ground up, on stance drilling...what do you think the bolt spacing would be? This spacing is what makes for some of the fun moderates at J tree like Walk on the Wild side. Not that I've ever placed a bolt or ever will, but I can't imagine the time it took to place the bolts put on just these routes much less really hard routes.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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When people talk about the First Ascent experience and style, I often see some bring up the argument that when people rap bolt a route, they take out the fun out of first ascent experience. I’d like to disagree with that. Even though all the FAs that I have done were GU, I would not mind at all to rap bolt some amazing face pitch that I know I can’t bolt on lead. Especially if I don’t think other climbers have the ability as well (lack of stances/edges to hook etc) and if it is at some roadside crag I can walk to the top of. But I have not done FAs on those. I really like remote walls with more than a few pitches of climbing, but that’s not the place where you gonna start finding beautiful face pitches to rap bolt, you take the path that looks good and hopefully take it to the top. I think as I get better at rock climbing, I will concentrate more on shorter and harder climbs. Seems like it could be really fun to “project” something, if you can make really difficult moves.
SO...If BEST CLIMBER IS ONE HAVING THE MOST FUN, than THE BEST STYLE IS ONE THAT ENABLES THE CLIMBER (one doing the FA) TO HAVE THE MOST FUN, BE CREATIVE, PUSH PERSONAL LIMITS WITHOUT RUINING THE AREA/OFFENDING OTHER CLIMBERS/RESPECTING THE LAWS.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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way tooooo much thinking going on!
it's only rock climbing!
edit: the B&Y would be a pretty popular root if more bolts were added.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:13am PT
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I'm off to go bouldering, so I'll have to check back in latter, but I'm wondering why the first ascent style has to be the absolute measure of good? Someone puts up a rappel-bolted sport-climb that hundreds or even thousands of climbers can try and in doing so they can personally confront all manner of different experiences (for some it's a challenge or even impossible, for some it's an easy warm-up, for some it's scary, for others it's mellow but for the huge majority who climb it I doubt it represents the loss of a possible pure first ascent). Why are these not "goods" to be valued every bit as much a first ascent done in impeccable style? IMHO sport climbing has made climbing infinitely more interesting, of course not because it improves on the first acsent measure of value, but for the many other benefits it has brought to the activity (and anyone who thinks sport climbing is all about "convenience" simply has not taken advantage of the many possibilties, challenges and benefits to climbers that have been opened up this style). That's why I think the best way to approach these questions of style is regionally and not globally: areas like the gritstone, etc are great for people who like deadly heading-pointing or want to try a death-defying onsight, but I don't see any reason why every area needs to have the same measures of good and bad.
Tim
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:14am PT
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I have likewise participated in both styles. For me it is dictated by the area which I am at. Much of it depends of the rock, but not always. I would not rap bolt in the needles but have done so at Mt. Rushmore. In Spearfish Canyon a place that sat there for decades around many climbers and was basically never touched we have used top town tactics with heavy cleaning and it is seen as the best way for that area. I personally dream of finding this unkown crack utopia where I need no anchors, but Spearfish Canyon aint it.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:15am PT
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the B&Y would be a pretty popular root if more bolts were added.
I was thinking of adding about 10. I think addition of a few more would make it a really fun route.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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I personally think that it comes down to the amount of climbers per square mile.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:21am PT
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I loved putting in sport routes. Cleaning a cliff into a beautiful climb, but it got too expensive and I suck at it so I pretty much just trad climb.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:22am PT
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rap bolted routes use aid to establish on a First Ascent...
this is not the best style for a first ascent
I know that good routes get established this way, but what part should the eventual use of the route (ascents after the first) play in the choice to do less then best style on the first ascent?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:26am PT
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Ed, I think you are assuming that everyone agrees with you that ground up is best. In many areas it is not best.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 20, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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So another 2 cents…I think unless you are doing really runout routes that cater to a specific audience, the style does not matter much if YOUR PURPOSE is to make a QUALITY climb. I think there is a lot of joy to be taken in having other people climbing and complimenting you on a good route. Even though some FAs you can test your composure and get really scared, I think it is ok to dedicate some routes to others and take great joy in it. Whatever the individual is excited about should be the best style, for that individual…hopefully done now.
Those easily accessible/top ropable routes that people bolt on rap, could go ground up as bolt ladders too, but to me that’s just stupid because you damage the rock more and waste a lot of energy for something pointless. Just TR the crap out of it, think of where the bolts should go, let others TR it and see if they agree with bolt placements. Place bolts, enjoy your rock climb. Or just keep to TRing it if it offends other people in the area.
BFD, its just rock climbing.
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