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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 17, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
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After you get proficient in concentration style meditation and the discursive chatter slows down you encounter feelings. At this time you are acutely aware and the feelings can be very intense and difficult to hold. The instruction is to not cling or push them away.
It takes practice to not react to the feelings and to just watching emerge and then leave.
Typically one reacts to feelings , personalizing the experience but to just observe and be is quite different.
When the feeling leaves you are hanging out in equanimity. Equanimity is not easy to put in words. The same instruction applies don't grasp it and don,t push it away.
Doing this practice provides a different relationship with feelings you completely hold them with out reacting to them. It is very intimate and transformative. It is not easy often I can't hold the painful feelings and the bliss can become overwhelming.
It seems to come down to what is your relationship to the moment , to the feelings.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 17, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
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Jim
You should stop posting on sh!t you know nothing about ....
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 17, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
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I don't assume anything nor need to as you make it perfectly clear that you are clueless .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 17, 2017 - 10:17pm PT
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After you get proficient in concentration style meditation and the discursive chatter slows down . . .
Not the same as sitting peacefully and watching the world go by. Zen Buddhism is not necessary. Too religious and belief-system oriented.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 18, 2017 - 06:19am PT
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Jim,
yes the duck is in a cosmic supreme state of moral highness.
But,
Life begets life.
&
Lack of imagination begets the conceivability argument.
The duck destroys a lot of life just to kept us informed of his grand illusion.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 18, 2017 - 06:50am PT
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It takes practice to not react to the feelings and to just watching emerge and then leave.
Typically one reacts to feelings, personalizing the experience but to just observe and be is quite different.
Great point from PSP...
Meditation is not necessarily necessary to achieve this...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Sep 18, 2017 - 07:37am PT
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Marlow’s assessment is also what I see.
Dingus: I ask are you tied up in the Chalmers knot of non-conceivability?
You asked two other questions in your post to me, but they all seem to be pointing to the same issue.
Perhaps we should give some thought as to what we might mean by “non-conceivability.”
I’m probably an outlier of views, first of all.
Conceivability refers to a model, a framework, a bracketing, an equation of sorts that captures key elements of a thing one is attempting to define or clarify. A concept is a kind of stickman representation of a thing or phenomenon. As a result, a conceptualization necessarily leaves some elements and relationships out of consideration. In any empirical study, there is usually some statistic reported that measures how much of the observed variation is explained or accounted for.
So, . . . can phenomena be characterized, modeled, or presented through an abstraction? Yes.
Is a model or abstraction “the thing” a being observes? Not really, in my book.
It might seem to some people that some things are easier to model and define than others. “Mind” seems particularly challenging to model or define.
On the other hand, in my view, every thing or phenomena seems impossible to conceptualize, especially *if one sees “things” concretely.* (I don’t.)
Perhaps I should stop here and see if we’re anywhere near each other in views.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 18, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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MikeL,
I understand your points. So far everyone )except the Duck( is in the speculation phase of how subjectivity and the rest of mind can arise. I see no value in beating a dead horse like the argument framing is done by Largo & Chalmers since they use some uninformed ideas & constraints to pose the dilemma from which they ask, How could it be?
It is like hearing a broken record, "Who killed the Kennedy's?"
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 18, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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The question is - are thoughts unsharable?
No. It is probably a question of to what extent thoughts can be shared.
Here is a look at what may be possible.
Twin Life: Sharing Mind and Body reveals a year in the life of the astonishing Hogan sisters -- the only known twins who doctors suspect can see what the other sees, and feel what the other feels. Their family believes they can also taste what the other tastes.
http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episodes/twin-life-sharing-mind-and-body
I would not rule out the chance that technology may one day do something similar to what biology has done for the twins to allow at least partial sharing of thoughts and feelings.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 18, 2017 - 09:23am PT
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Marlow quotes PSP
It takes practice to not react to the feelings and to just watching emerge and then leave.
Then Marlow says;
Meditation is not necessarily necessary to achieve this..
Meanwhile Marlow the stalker and hypocrite overreacts to every post I make.
He has no control at all.
I make these posts to see how the minds react since this is "the what is mind thread".
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 18, 2017 - 10:45am PT
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WBraun
You say:
Meanwhile Marlow the stalker and hypocrite overreacts to every post I make.
He has no control at all.
I make these posts to see how the minds react since this is "the what is mind thread".
Answer:
Then our intentions are different. I am primarily interested of how my own mind reacts. I seldom or never make statements just to see how other people react. That's a bit manipulative, isn't it (aka ducksnake).
And when it comes to Marlow as an overreacting stalker and hypocrite, I have a hard time seeing that. Are you sure it's not you who are now overreacting and projecting?
And one more observation: I often find your points of view interesting. You have the ability to make statements that at times draw my attention.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Sep 18, 2017 - 11:29am PT
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The question is - are thoughts unsharable?
At the risk of sounding too touchy-feely, I'm tempted to say, to a large extent, my thoughts are like they are because of sharing. Modern neuro-lingo might like to use words like "input", "output", "feedback" and "processing", but sharing works fine with me.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 18, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
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I'm tempted to say, to a large extent, my thoughts are like they are because of sharing.
A good way to put it. I think that we all share much, and thoughts are not left outside the circle.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 18, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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Mike L mentioned a while back that he experienced feelings as textures (paraphrased) .
I agree, when you are meditating and you don't personalize the feelings and don't label them pleasurable or non-pleasurable or good or bad; it changes the relationship you have with feelings.
For instance pain, pain is often part of a retreat when there is endless sitting. If you don't discursively label it and just remain curious about the experience you see it is not constant; one instant it is there and the next it isn't, and when you observe it more closely it feels more like an changing tension/texture and not necessarily unpleasurable.
The labeling of the feelings as pleasurable or non-plesureable is just that, a label; as Mike L said they are just different textures when not labeled. So the labeling becomes an interesting thing to look at. yes I know that putting my hand in the fire will be unpleasurable or slamming my hand in a car door, etc. etc. etc..
When the supposedly uncomfortable feeling comes up while sitting i.e. sleepiness, or being too hot or too cold,or the loud frat party going on next door, if you personalize it and own it as "I am too hot ", I hate this sleepy feeling it is so difficult" you define it in this narrow way (put in the box of something "I" don't like and stop being curious about it, stop watching it to see it's finer points.
If you apply this same process to pleasurable experiences the same is true of pleasurable feelings ; What is pleasurable other than a made up label. Yes it comes in handy for communicating about what you feel like; but, is it the whole picture? What are feelings? Especially before the discursive mind puts them in the boxes of Like and Dislike. If you can resist the tendency of putting feeling in either the Like or Dislike categories you may gain some "free will" (one of J Gills favorite subjects).
p.s. I don't post much anymore ;I blocked ST at work but I am home sick today. Cheers!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 18, 2017 - 02:43pm PT
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I find this thread most interesting when posts focus on what the mind can do, rather than eternally pondering the relationship between brain and the experience of awareness. Maybe the "Hard Problem" will be solved some day, but certainly not by us, the resident speculators. But I suspect the HP is misleading and polarizing.
The recent comments about sharing feelings and perspectives reminded me of an experience I wrote briefly about some time ago: Temporarily becoming another personality.
The hynagogic state is a doorway to internal adventures, as I discovered over forty years ago in the Art of Dreaming. But, of course, Zen Masters consider it merely an impediment to reaching the true state of being. And it can be a bit difficult to capture and control at times. My momentary shift to another personality is a case in point, for I had formed no intent to do so and it seemed accidental.
The entire episode lasted less than a minute, but like the Art of Dreaming it left a lasting impression. I have no idea who I became, but I "awoke" in a strange bedroom, and as my I-consciousness solidified, I was someone else with entirely different feelings, knowledge, and perceptions. It's impossible to explain the experience, for it's truly unimaginable.
Anyway, Multiple Personality Disorders is a fascinating condition and one that might offer insights into the nature of Mind.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:42pm PT
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Hey, so I've gone out of my way to not do things that I do just from the fact that I did them yesterday for a bit. That has included not looking at this thread for a while. So, the very last post went something very close to...
I find this thread most interesting when posts focus on what the mind can do, rather than eternally pondering the relationship between brain and the experience of awareness.
Well, I must say, you had me at do. I think that this is the obvious line to follow. My creative self is my best self. It's my doing self.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 18, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
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Temporarily becoming another personality.
This occurred to me also. If we are able to experience what another person has, whatever the means, does a part of us become a part of that person? If we ever find the means to share more completely another person's experiences, how would our concept of our self be affected? To what extent are the Hogan twins two people and to what extent are they the same person? The same might be asked about other twins, and about any pair of people who are very close to each other, as compared to people who have little or no common history.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 18, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
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Temporarily becoming another personality.
Many people had different personalities in their previous lives.
A lot of people in their next lives become elephants or dogs or insects depending on their previous lives karma and developed consciousness.
Some go to other planets.
Many males return as females in their next lives because they are thinking of their women at the time of leaving material bodies.
The modern gross materialist scientist is completely bewildered by such facts.
The gross materialist can't wrap their tiny minds around the fact of de-evolution of the living entity into nonhuman bodies in their next lives
because they don't even have a clue yet what the living entity is yet.
The gross materialists have mountains of useless data and remain ultimately clueless to whom and what they really are .....
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