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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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and not feel like you didn't pull an orphan out of the fire
Good point Largo. We have seen that exact sentiment in some of our friends who have adopted. Its a pretty rude awakening if a young couple goes into it with that attitude. Often there is a natural humbling process that comes with the whole adoption process fortunately. Any parenting endeavor is best played by leaving one's ego at the door.
Here's something to chew on.
QUESTION:
Is a kid adopted from an orphanage in a third world country better off if he comes here and has pretty crummy parenting overall? Lets say the parents stateside go through a divorce. Lets say he's neglected here and never really bonds with his adoptive parent. Lets say mom and dad are fairly crummy selfish parents and he ends up with all kinds of issues in high school and beyond. Was he/she better off in an orphanage in say Uzbekistan? I've seen both sides of this coin. Tough one.
And Phred....very cool. Glad to hear your story. Very sweet.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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There's no possible way to answer that question, Micronut. There are too many nuances in life.
Suppose a child in a squalid third-world orphanage is the sole provider of comfort to a younger one there the one who holds off the beatings that timid little fellow would surely be receiving from a bully who is raging against emotions he's unable to process?
I think that to say they were "better off" that an adopted child in the US(because there is low chance a person will get through the adoption process if they can't provide financially, which would include education at a minimum) would have to be looking at it through some sort of rose-tinted glasses.
How many people who go to the Himilayas and see families with so little in the way of physical belongings yet are happier that anyone the know over here with access to so much?
To think we can look upon a life that "wasn't" and say the one that was is "better" that what we imagine would have been otherwise.... I think that might be hubris.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I think it boils down to one thing, in the end: the pre-verbal sense of basic trust. Aalmas put it this way:
The presence of basic trust indicates that you have the innate sense that life is fundamentally benevolent, and that benevolence exists independent of you and your actions. You will have this sense to the extent that your grounding in the universe has not been disturbed. The relative presence or absence of basic trust is a belly quality, something one’s whole being is either grounded in or not. The disturbance of basic trust is a significant factor in ego development because the perspective of ego is diametrically opposed to the sense of basic trust. The ego’s perspective arises out of a lack of this trust. It is based on distrust, on paranoia, on fear, on the conviction that you're not going to be adequately taken care of and that the universe is not there to hold and take care of you in the ways that you need. This conviction causes you to believe that you have to engage in all kinds of manipulations and games to get your needs met and to make things work out.
You develop basic trust when your parenting is good enough, regardless of where you got it or who helped you get it. Basic trust cannot be developed by simply "loving" someone. That can be crippling when the kid is infantalized. It comes from nurturing a persons autonomy and authenticity according to the kids own needs and basic makeup, not as a favor or executing some enlightened MO, but rather as a matter of course. With basic trust, a person can charge into the world and get after it.
Erik Erikson conducted an enormous amount of research on developmental issues, especially attachment. He indicated that children who have secure attachments with their parents have a general sense that the world is predictable and reliable (this is basic trust). Curiously, trying to intentionally do this is often counterproductive. In other words, the parents can't give what they don't have.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
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Good thoughts Happiegirl.
To think we can look upon a life that "wasn't" and say the one that was is "better" that what we imagine would have been otherwise.... I think that might be hubris.
I agree. My point was that adopting to "save a child from that poor third world country orphanage" is a fundamentally poor way to go about it. If that's the primary reason. I've seen it before and it was a tough road for both child and parent.
When we get asked "why do you adopt?" or "why are you adopting AGAIN?" our answer....and my wife and I are unified on this is "We love kids, we love raising kids and watching them grow into adults, we have plenty of love to offer, we have a safe and warm and fun home. We have the finances. we have a heart for those without a father, or who have never known a mother. Its an amazing process for both our family and hopefully for the child. We've done it a couple times and have seen what joy it can bring us and the child. Our oldest adopted kid is now grown and married and has babies of her own. Its a wonderful way to grow a family.
Its a wonderful way to make the world a better place, one child at a time."
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Doc, you and your wife...you're entire family are freaking amazing. You guys are just very cool human beings. Thanks for posting a pic of your gang. What a great family.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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One of the real flashpoints in adoptions is the idea that any person can bring a child into the world and then be shielded from ever accounting to it per genetics, background, etc. . . .
At bottom, regardless of their upbringing, adoptees usually have a preverbal feeling of being strangers in the world, to lesser or greater degrees. This can work for or against the adoptee. Existentially, the adoptee is on their own. We all are, really, but the adoptee probably feels it a little more acutely.
Largo, your words really struck home with me. I was adopted @ 2 days old in Anchorage through Catholic Charities (Protestant parents for a Protestant baby that was on its way). I always knew that I was adopted, that I was wanted, but I grew up in the '70s, when it still wasn't discussed in polite company...or even amongst friends. I remember being taken aback when all of a sudden in college, people started asking me to talk about it. At first, I didn't know what to say. I'd never spoken about it. What was there to say?
That being said, it was my "normal". My younger brother is also adopted and came to our family originally through the foster care system. We had other foster children in our family growing up. Even when I was small, I remember feeling acutely how displaced the kids that lived with us must have felt, knowing they would eventually move on due to the laws that prevent kids from ever forming solid bonds, or roots.
I think I dressed myself in a sort of independence to soften the rough edges of not fitting in, though please don't get me wrong, I love my family and am grateful that they have loved and cared for me my entire life. I didn't grow to be as tall as expected given my big feet as an infant, and everyone in my family is about 5'11"+, skinny, with dark hair and light, Irish or English/Scot eyes. They are mostly all linear thinkers and dissimilar from me personality-wise. (I barely scratch 5'7", have broad shoulders and am built so solidy it isn't funny. I stick out in family pictures . I'm given to stubborn determination, though frequently it's going in too many directions to count or for my family to bother to try to understand.)
It wasn't until my daughter was born that I actually felt it would be okay to start looking for my birth parents, though it took me a couple of years due to my fears. But the need to thank my birth mom for what she had done for me is what won out in the end.
The process of discovering where I came from filled a void I had never really acknowledged might be there, somewhere. It didn't strike me like a flash of lightening, but, rather, it has slowly grown through me over time, much like the roots of a tree growing down into the soil, anchoring the tree deeper as time goes on. Most days, it's the most beautiful feeling in the world to look up at one or the other walls of my office and see a picture of my birth mom or dad, Yosemite or a picture the muppet has drawn for me of us climbing together. Knowing that I come from two incredibly driven, stubborn, hyper-sensitive and creative thinkers (one of whom also made "stuff" and was raised by foster parents) makes sense out of me, where I didn't make sense before, being so different from anyone else I've ever known. I used to try (unsuccessfully) to find a sense of "home" in the places I lived. Now I am at home in my own heart. That is the gift of knowing where you come from.
This process (through some of the necessary revelations) wasn't without a wild rollercoaster of emotion, so my solution has been to take that huge ball of (neither negative nor positive) emotion that I'm left with and purposefully guide it in a positive direction through volunteering with organizations in honor of the memories of my birth parents. This has helped me to continue to feel connected to them by paying forward, with deep gratitude, both what they, and the greater climbing community, have given to me.
(Not really sure where all of that came from all of a sudden, but there you have it!) :)
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cmcc
Trad climber
Redding, CA
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We were not able to get pregnate for 5 years and went down the infertility road. I remember camping out at Smith Rock with my wife. I had to give her shots as part of the attempt to induce egg production. But no luck!
You never think about it and then you are there wondering what the heck is going on. We worked to embrace it all as our journey to building a family.
We were introduced to an attorney in Portland who did private adoptions. And to make two very long, amazing, and emotional stories short... we now have two incredible young Men. Both joined our family at birth.
We also have incredible relationships with two birth mothers and one of the birth fathers. We have been on extended trips with them, run marathons with them and played at the rock gym together.
What better way for these young men to realize they are incredibly loved than for us to have quality relationships with their birth parents. I believe it diffuses the questions and lets them feel safe.
Yep and just to keep the thread on topic they are my climbing partners!
[photoid=497955]
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
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Cmcc and LilaBiene what amazing stories. Made my day. This thread has been super inspiring.
Thank you for sharing.
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Mark Sensenbach
climber
CA
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Thank you for a great thread! Giving back to others and helping is truly what it is all about. Luv Ya!!
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Wen
Trad climber
Bend, OR
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This is a great thread, thanks to all who have shared their experiences as they give me such hope about this silly world we all share.
I am a child psychologist, and I often work with families who have adoption as part of their family story. I want to caution people not to make adoption sounds so universally awesome. I see kids all the time who are adopted by amazing families with great intentions, but then are a mismatch for a variety of reasons, and it causes alot of pain for all involved. Drug exposed kids for instance can make well-intentioned adoptive parents question their values about adopting. Largo's points about attachment become HUGE for some families and cause issues that take much time, patience and love to overcome. Not that families can't overcome them, but it's not always as easy as it sounds. Basic trust is really hard to build after it was disrupted in those early years.
Adoption is a very complicated process. Thankfully it often turns out great, but you can't always assume that.
Sorry to be a nay-sayer in a beautiful thread. The people on Supertaco inspire me every day.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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This IS an awesome thread. I was wondering if Lilibiene would post, and it was so nice to read.
I'm going to be shameless and plug the Camp To Belong camp my sister and her husband manage. There are Camp to Belongs in many states and even other countries. Camp to Belong brings siblings who are separated due to being in foster care or another situation to be reunited, if only for a short amount of time, and hep develop and maintain sibling ties.
They can always use volunteers, and being a camp counselor, or camp nurse, might be just the type of volunteer thing an outdoors-loving person would be suited for.
http://www.ctb-wi.org/
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Wen said: Basic trust is really hard to build after it was disrupted in those early years.
I'm not sure it can ever be built after early disruptions because it's such a foundational issue. Pretty sure that a person who grew up with bad attachments (like me) is left to either go into the shadows and wallow or cause havoc, or to try and reconstitute themselves on another plane.
Trying to manage this on the same psychological plane where the disruption occurred is unlikely, though many try and spend fortunes only to end up with a perfectly analyzed problem.
I managed to sort of reconfigure myself mostly through meditation, but it took 20 odd years.
People like Micronut are rare, in my experience. Jails and rehabs are full of orphans. Once the dynamic between parents and adoptee devolves into a control battle, there are no winners.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2017 - 09:02pm PT
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People like Micronut are rare, in my experience. Jails and rehabs are full of orphans. Once the dynamic between parents and adoptee devolves into a control battle, there are no winners.
Thank you for the nice complement John. Jails and rehab centers are full of nonadopted people too. The fundamental wounds of a parent leaving a child can take some time to mend but I have seen first case dozens and dozens and dozens of wonderful stories played out in front of my eyes. I am such an advocate for adoption because of first-hand experience with kids growing up in fantastic homes and leading fantastic lives generally unmarred by the adoption experience.
Something magical can happen when great and honest and humble parenting meets a child who is in need of adoption.
Our goal as parents is not to let a child's adoption define him but to let it be a part of who she/he is. One that brings him confidence and security and hey sense of belonging that is often even more unique than a biological child. Some parents get this intuitively (My wife for example....... I never could have been so insightful on my own) and some have to work through it but it's a beautiful process if you ask me.
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One more thought. Despite the heaviness and thoughtfulness of this thread, it bears mentioning that parenting an "orphan" isn't anything particularly unique. It is just parenting.
At some point they stop becoming an orphan and they just become your kid.
We don't parent them any different than our regular kids. We don't delineate between the two. And I think that is vitally important.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, all... came back to read a bit more...
great thread, micronut... love the family shares...
just saw largo's share, just before lilabiene...
very good share, there, largo...
also, enjoyed your share, then, lilabiene...
good, but very sad share, mighty hiker...
good stuff to read here...
thanks, to all that chipped in...
say, lilabien)audrey... if you get a chance, read some of the part
from bill marx, on how he came to find his birth parents...
it just 'started by accident' ... it was an amazing story...
(can't remember if he was curious, too, or, if was just due to the
accidental 'set up' )...
:)
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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These are wonderful, heartfelt sharings. Thank you for your stories.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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I want to foster a girl to compliment our two boys. Bill is growling at the idea. Not a problem, I have a few years to work on him. I honestly deeply believe all kids deserve a chance to be loved. Yes, some are beyond that but most are not.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Adoption is certainly not for sissies, especially if you consider a child from a foreign country at a "late" age. We first tried to adopt local children, but were not "Christian" enough for the birth parents. After several years on a waiting list for adopting local children, we adopted two kids from Russian orphanages, brother and sister age 5 and 4. We were told they were gifted and loving, and needed a good home. From day one, it was hell. we picked them up in Russia with little knowledge of the language, and could not control them. little by little, we learned the reason for their behavior. In an orphanage, they were left to fend for themselves; The bigger kids get the best clothes and the most food. The orphanage workers left a pile of clothes in a room and let the kids fend for themselves. The workers left a big bowl of food on the table and again let the kids fend for themselves. After years in such an environment, the kids were in permanent survival mode. Even after a few years in California, they did not change their values. It was too late. We placed our son in grammar school to learn the language and socialize. He did learn the language, ... but would not think twice about stealing lunch from his classmates if he was hungry, steal their toys if he liked them. We tried everything to change the behavior, from shame to religion to therapy. Nothing worked. Kids adopted at a "late age" and who were in a survival environment develop what is called "attachment disorder". They are unable to bond with any person, even with their adoptive parents. It is NOT a matter of bad parenting, but rather a matter of how their brain wired in their formative first years of life. One can Google "attachment disorder" and learn of many horror stories from good parents who went bankrupt both financially and emotionally while trying to provide such kids with a good home. In a way we are lucky that our daughter seems to have some form of attachment to us, 21 years after her adoption. It was a long hard road that I would not take again.
That said, I truly believe that if one adopts a kid in very young age, that kid will be just like their own. The world is full of examples where adopted children love their adoptive parents. I believe it is the norm for the vast majority of kids adopted at a young age. In my view, the key to a successful adoption is to adopt kids at a very young age, to learn everything about their past environment, and to love them with all your heart.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Maysho..I'm working with a guy that's friends with Braden.. Small world...rj
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jon p
Trad climber
flagstaff, az
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May 23, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
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Hey there...long time stalker, first time responder...
I'm here at the behest of my long time friend, DelhiDog, who suggested I peruse the board as soon as he heard I was adopting a 2 year old.
That said, I really appreciate all of your varied perspectives and insights.
We're picking up Rex in about 3 weeks and he'll be our first dumpling. Might any of you experienced adopters have any specific recommendations for the pick up and first few weeks together as we get to know each other and bond?
Thanks again, all...Always appreciate the boards and banter, and am especially looking forward to pulling from your collected wisdom.
Pura Vida!
Jon P
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