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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Feb 11, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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there are only 2 other persons that has given me the tiniest bit of grief
Werner and LEB
HEY NOW!
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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I watched Chris' excellent video. Along the lines he sketched what do I think we can do to further improve ST?
1. Frequency of posting: When I can, I edit a prior post of mine. Repetitive posting tends to direct a thread. Something to be avoided.
2. Alternatives to posting: Posting involves pulling the public at large into what sometimes should be a discussion between individuals. That totally changes the environment. Both are personal expressions but a PM, if worded carefully with respect for individuality can achieve much more. Just because it is not a public act. This too, however, can easily be overdone.
3. Quitting the Forum: I would be really mortified were I to say publicly how my elevated principles have caused me to quit, but then found I could not stick the landing. But more seriously, such expressions indicate the Forum is being used for self-validation. Ideas, history, knowledge, and discussion is the medium that rewards us the most.
None of us needs personal validation.
Those of us, who are still breathing, have all learned how to tolerate things to which we take exception.
4. MIssed potential: A climber who actually hates the activity, would be a most painful example of missed potential. In 1970 we were witnesses to an act by our community that staggers the mind. When we abandoned the use of pins and took risks with our own lives we selflessly acted for the common good. Each and every person among us did this, on their own.
For forty years I have awoken each morning still unable to figure out how that happened. Just think for a moment. How quickly we could solve the health care problem if that were to happen again.
If used well, the internet would be a tool central to such a meeting of the minds.
A meeting of the minds so badly needed.
Edit after reading Ed's note:
I can't comment on your evaluation of my role. It isn't possible for someone to evaluate their own contributions.
It was at the Trust's climbers' meeting that I sensed the pure determination all those people had. That we would preserve the Gunks. I started out fearing I was just a voice. After that meeting I knew we had a revolution. As you said, then it was just a matter of getting good data on an alternative.
But how was it all of that selfless determination suddenly appeared? Was it from nowhere?
How is that Facelift, suddenly appeared?
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apogee
climber
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Feb 11, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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Thanks for the wise words, jstan.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 11, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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In 1970 we were witnesses to an act by our community that staggers the mind. When we abandoned the use of pins and took risks with our own lives we selflessly acted for the common good. Each and every person among us did this, on their own.
For forty years I have awoken each morning still unable to figure out how that happened. Just think for a moment. How quickly we could solve the health care problem if that were to happen again.
ah, this is called leadership even if the leader (you in this case) didn't have the explicit affirmation of the community. You were exceptional in both your scientific analytics and your climbing, you figured out what the important aspects of protection by piton and by nut, demonstrated to your satisfaction that nuts would provide adequate protection and then adopted that mode of protection. You did this with members of the community that were respected.
In the hierarchy of climbing, those which show outstanding climbing ability are the leaders, however momentarily they possess those skills. In that moment, you brought both things together.
You don't know how it happened because you didn't think it could have happened any differently than it did, but without you it would have happened over a longer period of time. Others went along because they were not as close to the cutting edge of climbing as you were then, and their protection needs were perceived, rightly or wrongly, as not as severe as yours. In other words, if it was good enough for you, then it was good enough for them.
When it comes down to it, most if not all climbers have little understanding of protection, it is largely a prescription for them... in the rare case that it is figured out, Stannard for nuts, Jardine developed cams, the results were quickly adopted because of the possibilities for the protection were also demonstrated in pushing the boundaries of what was possible.
IMHO
The Facelift didn't just happen, it had been happening in bits for a while, a few people initially doing what they thought was right... and then getting other people to think and realize that we could do something, bit-by-bit, and have an effect
I have friends who don't participate in the Facelift, but do its work all the year 'round, it is, after all, the right thing to do if you are committed to preserving a beloved place.
But someone like Ken, who had credibility in both the NPS and the climbing community could come forward and make the effort coherent, the Facelift. He had the vision to see what was required to bring these different communities together based on the overlap of their values, and it worked.
It didn't just require data, the safety of nut question above, but someone who could identify what the important data was, and to validate the results of the experiment, and explain them to others if only through their own actions.
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Feb 11, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
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I just counted 18 non-climbing threads to the front page. I do believe that is an indication of how many "OT" threads are of interest to persons here.
Factor in the variety of different posters to a "OT" thread for a better indicator of "OT" interest. The ratio of # of posts and variety of posters would determine that.
(Not to be used in consideration of the "What Song..." thread.)
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Feb 11, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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I don't really get why certain people get all riled up about LEB. She's never said anything offensive, and posts exclusively in OT threads (the same place the riled up people post - kettle, meet pot). LEB is alright with me..
Its called mob mentality.
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apogee
climber
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Feb 11, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
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"In that context,-"She doesn't climb" is a pretty weak rationale for censuring an individual who doesn't employ malevolent actions."
There have been plenty of 'contributions' by actual climbers that have been far more negative and destructive than anything Lois has ever posted.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Feb 11, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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Just went through (most of) this thread… Found some gems I thought I'd give a thought on…
(at the outset I'd like to claim my undying love for happiegrrrl, Lolli and Crimpergirl. Early on there were posts that I just thought perfectly expressed something I had had either not been able to put into words so elequently or showed me a view that I had not previously considered in a very clear way. And they are beautiful people)
Nature!!! Right on!
"The problem with her is she thinks she's making a point or has something valuable to offer when the reality is she misses the mark. and my observation is most folks react by beating their head against a wall trying to point out her denseness. most of the taco is frustrated with that and would simply like it gone. If it was me and I was on a forum and almost everyone wishes I would just leave.... I'd leave w/o a single word. but again... it's the denseness at play."
 Damn!!! Now that is as clear a statement as I have seen pointing out exactly what the problem is regarding the mindless postings of a non-climber (never have been climber, never will be climber, may not have ever even considered climbing a valid activity/sport pre-ST forum). Thank you very much Nature for your putting a voice to/putting words to the frustrations I think many forum posters have tried to express but may not have in such clear terms.
Locker's-
""Hi Locker, you seem to be curious about the "revenge", it was not exactly revenge. The day I was banned, my office was broken into (4 computers stolen). I did not know that it was a mass banning at the time. So, when asked "who does not like you right now", I offered up CMac and RJ as highly unlikely suspects. And I repeated "highly unlikely". And the building has had several break in the last few months, we only found this out later. So, they will likely not be contacted, but they are on a report. If CMac had given more details as to why I was banned and that others had also been banned, I would never have mentioned his name. You are free to post this to ST if you like. I also wrote to CMac that I didn't mind being banned for the "trangressions" as long as others were as well.""
If this was really an email from fattard I personally find it to show clearly how much of an idiot he really truly is and I agree with Locker. Why would the names need to be brought into the matter (a.k.a having no connection)
Recent break in (may or may not be total BS as most of us seem to know)
A break in that involves local police and when asked "who does not like you right now" the only people to come off the tongue of this upright citizen is CMac and RJ? For real? No really? Wait, ow I see where I am wrong… I usually wait to be presented with evidence before I start making claims such as this…. to the authorities…. (if it is true at all).
If it is true that fattard is at the same time: a guy who adopts children and gives to charities while also being an online virtual c#&% and adding random peoples names to police reports without any real evidence…. I think this should show that the supertopo is literally a better place without fattard.
bvb -
"My favorite Fattrad pathology was his insisitance on repeatedly reposting images of "Certificates" and "Letters of Appreciation" from low-level municipal functionaries. I have mountains of those things, only they came to me by way of the Deputy Director of the Secret Service, a personal letter from Secretary Rumsfeld, etc.
Didn't hang on to a single one of 'em. meh. They didn't hold half the water as, say, an offhand, personal, C4 compliment from Walt Shipley or Duecy or Kevin or Tucker. Those were way harder to come by, and infinately more valuable.
Fattrad, indeed."
Perfect description of the menace fattard
Malemute
"If you are impervious to logic & reason, then you are dense.
If you need to self-validate through an internet forum, you are pathetic."
Clearly stated and sharp as a razor.
After reading this thread…. and finally writing on a ST forum without the tardness of the fattard…. I can finally say this is a form of tooling that is oh so fitting of the tool known as fattard. Fattard may now consider himself publicly tooled. I find it kind of ironic that the guy who mentioned tooling others all the f*#king time is now receiving the tool. After all, her is a tool.
Jingy - total 5994 forum postings found.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 11, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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wow jingy
nice summaries, all seem spot on
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 11, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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Thanks, jstan. I second Ed's evaluation of your contribution to clean climbing. Even though I never met you personally until Facelift a couple of years ago, I knew about you and your leadership in clean climbing from at least 1970. I think Chouinard's introduction of stoppers and hexes, as well as Doug Robinson's article in the 1972 Chouinard catalog, coupled with Tom Frost's article in the AAJ all helped, too. I think the clincher was that the climbers I most admired were climbing clean, other than on aid first ascents.
I'm not sure how this translates to this forum, though, because I'm not quite sure who the leaders are. I do know that your posts and Ed's have a lot of admirers including me, but there are so many others whose posts or threads I read simply because they posted them, that it's hard to pick just a few. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone with the stature that you had in the east, or, say, Robbins had for me, to emulate.
Maybe we can begin with Chris, who keeps this campfire going. I thought he did a good job in his video as well. A little editing and self-restraint would go a long way on most of the problems.
We also need to consider that most climbers (at least most that I know, including me) have a certain rebellious, anarchic, distaste for regimentation, so more rigidity or stronger moderation doesn't strike me as a good change.
Again, thanks for your usual, insightful, comments.
John
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apogee
climber
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Feb 11, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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John Stannard
(Hope I'm not outing you, jstan.)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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I vote for keeping LEB around simply because she is so easy to ignore, and she adds value for those rare times when I am so bored and at loose ends that teasing a small kitten with some catnip on a string actually has entertainment value.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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Trust me LEB, anything I have to say to you will be right here, for the benefit of my peers, visible to all in the cold public light of day.
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apogee
climber
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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Not really...there are plenty of bvb groupies around who've got his back.
Anybody got your back, Lois?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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apogee
climber
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:31am PT
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That picture can't be Lois. The ForeheadPhallus® is missing.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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"The wild west and animal farm can only last so long ......"
Well said Werner. Classic.
This is what the forum is about, IMO. Climbing and BS... they sort of go together. And I like (though don't really know) most of the posters.
ChrisMac, my hat's off to you, but don't clean up too much.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
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Feb 12, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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whatever-
at times this forum can be kinda cool-
but it also kinda does really SUCK in some ways-
and one of the biggest ways (THE BIGGEST WAY?) it sucks is you (lois)
no offense or anything, just calling a spade a spade.
have at it, once someone pisses all over their spot, and it stinks like them, who cares about that spot? seriously.
so lowest, it's all yours.
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