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sidepull
Boulder climber
centerville
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 11, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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I'm trying to fill in the gaps before the publication of the Tim Frost article in Chouinard Equipment's early catalog. It seems that the ideas/ideals surrounding clean climbing came from England - yes? Any names? Any British documents (like Frost's) that explain the philosophy of clean climbing?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 11, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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Well you know, the brits are a lazy thrifty (cheap) sort, so why go to all the hastle of banging in pins when you can just slot a chockstone or a nut?
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sidepull
Boulder climber
centerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Thanks!
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Feb 11, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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While this query could lead to a very lengthy response, I'll try to keep it short. The Brits were always anti-piton since those metal spikes made their first appearance in the late 19th or earliest 20th century. It is worth noting that much of the British rock then being climbed upon was well-featured with numerous spikes and horns to pass the rope around or, later, to sling.Eventually they began picking up rocks on the approaches and inserting then in cracks as chockstones to sling for protection. By the mid-1950s some English climbers were using machine nuts in place of these rocks, and by the early '60s some were manufacturing them (Trevor Peck was a pioneer in this)first for themselves and then commercially. Occasionally British climbers would come here(or Yanks go over there)and use such gadgets at US crags, and some US climbers adapted them here (usually as a supplement to pitons). I know John Reppy in Connecticut was an early US user of such techniques, and English climber Jim Swallow introduced them to some of us at Devil's Lake in the mid-60s. But the real impetus came after Royal and Liz Robbins came back from a visit to Great Britain converted to the use of nuts. Royal was particularly concerned with the damage to cracks in Yosemite (and elsewhere) from the repeated placement and removal of hard steel(chrome-molly)pitons (themselves only relatively recently commercially available)--which was then the approved ethic here. Robbins vaey actively proseyltized the use of nuts (Nutcracker in Yosemite was a well-publicized exemplar climb), but at first his ideas weren't accepted. But soon others, most notably John Stannard in the Gunks, Chouinard, Frost, and Doug Robinson in California took up the cause and in a remarkably short time---1 or 2 seasons(by 1972)---clean climbing was the norm in most situations. As stated at the start, this is just a brief summary probably repeated in the other threads I was too lazy to scroll thru.
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sidepull
Boulder climber
centerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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Thanks Alan
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sidepull
Boulder climber
centerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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So, in somewhat of a tangent - what is the history of "alpine style" or "alpinist tactics" (as opposed to seige tactics)?
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Sieging came later.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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I put this in the wrong thread. It's a (sorta0 interesting story.
On another thread (It takes brass nuts), Rick Accomazzo wrote: "
"Largo-You should tell the little-known story of how you and Richard H. invented the curved stopper (the “Banana Nut”) in Richard’s basement. When Chouinard came out with curved stoppers in the early 80s, Wild Country sued Chouinard for patent infringement. Chouinard’s lawyers came out to Denver to record my deposition .The purpose was this: if Chouinard could show that the curved nut was already in use before Wild Country patented it, the patent would be defeated, what patent lawyers refer to as “prior art.”
My claim to technological fame is that Richard and I did actually invent the curved stopper, in Richard's proto-Hendrix So-Cal crib, retooling by hand four or five regular, straight Chouinard Stoppers with files of the flat and bastard variety. Richard and I had complained for a solid year that the straight Stoppers weren't working as advertised, usually just catching at two points, so with a lot of filing on several mid-range Stoppers - ruining two or three with worthless remodels - we came up with the design that exists today. Somebody saw what we had - the so-called "banana nut" (so-called for it's curve and the fact that we painted it bright yellow) was passed around Camp 4 for a whole season - copied same (more power to them), and the rest is history.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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I remember it happening in a couple of seasons also.
Nuff to make your head spin.
The alpine ascent that really got my attention was the climb of Annapurna alpine style by the french. That was back when you just put two pair of wool socks into your leather boots. Gripping!
Read up on Joe. The Black Cliff is good. The whole of the Rock and Ice wrassling with the giant motorcycle rider provides an image you won't find the equal of.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Feb 11, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Brian Greenwood (an expat Brit) climbed Belfry (5.8) on Yamnuska in 1958 using only chockstones and nuts. This route is not trivial and he was probably basically soloing much of it.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Feb 12, 2009 - 01:59am PT
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The initial post mentions "Tim" Frost, and of course
that would be Tom Frost, but yes it really all began
with Royal, in fall 1966, when he arrived back in
America after being in Europe and spending time in England.
He and Whillans looked me up in Colorado, and we
climbed, and Royal was carrying a whole set of nuts,
not the nuts of modern design, but in some cases real
machine nuts looped with webbing or perlon or something...
The whole movement caught on pretty quick, Chouinard
and Frost making the transition, and of course Doug
Robinson's article... and so forth...
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sidepull
Boulder climber
centerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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Tami,
It's both a personal interest and a research project.
I think I've got enough of an understanding of "clean climbing" (I received a great email from Stephane and found all the old articles in AAJ and the CE catalog).
But I'm still fuzzy on the advent of "alpine style" ethics - where did they develop, how did they transfer to the US, etc. Any help would be fab.
Side
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:45am PT
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There is an important distinction which is all too often glossed over or even ignored;
clean vs hammerless.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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The distinction between "alpine style" and "siege" or "expedition style" is pretty simple.
Alpine style is climbing a route from bottom to top without having a safely line that takes you back to a more comfortable camp to spend the night, only to ascend those ropes to a high point the next day and continue upward in this manner. If the weather gets bad or something unexpected happens you deal with it wheere you are because you don't retreat back down the route, leaving ropes to aid progress the next time you get a chance. You and your buddy put everything you think you'll need in a rucksack, take a roper or two and go up and climb the Eiger in two days.
Siege or expedition style tactics involve climbing to a high point and having ropes from the bottom of the route fixed to that high point to be ascended the next time to the next high point etc. This might possibly be all the way from the bottom of the route to the top. In case of anything bad happening on the route you can always be assured that you have a life-line back down to the ground. You and your buddy go off to climb the Eiger but you take two thousand feet or more of rope and climb till you run out of energy. anchor the rope, slide back down it to the ground and check into a nice hotel. The next day you climb the ropes to the high point, climb some moreof the route and then stop, anchor another few ropes and rappel back down for another nice meal in the hotel etc.....
Siege tactics became popular in the early 1950s for ascending Himalayan peaks that were deemed too large/difficult for standard or alpine style tactics. Then siege tactics spread to other mountain ranges like the Andes in South America and Alaska.
I'm not sure exactly when siege tactics actually began but I"m sure that with the British ascent of Everest in 1953 that gave great credability to that style and it's still practised to this day. Probably other people in this forum can give you better beta.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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One distinction should be remembered. If you ask a professional historian, it is possible to write A history of clean climbing. It is not possible to write THE history of clean climbing, given that the information available and perspectives evolve over time. No exclusive is possible.
Given that they are quasi-historical documents, it is annoying to run across guidebooks that are titled "The Climber's (or Climbers') Guide to ABC" - particularly when there have been several previous guidebooks to ABC area, and will be others in future. Misuse if not abuse of the definite article.
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sidepull
Boulder climber
centerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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Agreed. I'm interested in "A" history of "alpine style ethics."
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there all... say, i thought this was all very interesting... so just thought i'd bump it (being a bit selfish, perhaps, but i wanted to find it easy, for tomorrow, for to read again... )... ;)
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snoreta01
Boulder climber
east vinod nagar , delhi
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Great history i know from here.
Rocky
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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In many ways, it was Tom Frost's trip to Europe a couple years after Royal and Liz visited that made the difference. Tom and Doreen were in England after the Annapurna South Face expedition recovering when Chris Bonnington outfitted them with a rack of the nuts du jour. Tom climbed in his mountain boots, Doreen in EB's and they had a fabulous time climbing the classics. Tom already had his eyes open with respect to clean climbing and when he was able to witness firsthand the relatively pristeen condition of the heavily used crags, the light came on in a big way. He also took stock of the tools available and found them wanting.
He returned to Chouinard equipment with a mission and the Hexentric and Stopper were the first manifestations of his design and engineering excellence. So high are his standards that he still expressed dismay decades later at having selected galvanized wire over stainless for cabling them!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Interestingly enough from a clean climbing perspective, I think that Joe Brown was something of a rebel in his day---for using pitons! What I think was true, however, is that he restricted himself to one piton per pitch maximum.
I might add that the concept of free climbing as practiced today all over the world was an American concept honed at Tahquitz. The Brits and certainly the Europeans generally pulled on any piece that they placed.
Part of the genius of the Chouinard/Frost approach to both nuts and pitons was making a clearly graduated set of standard sizes that everyone could learn and then use reflexively. The British chocks (and much earlier, European pitons) always seemed to be a hodgepodge of idiosyncratic sizes and shapes.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Harding's "siege" of the Nose of El Cap in 1957-58 was probably the most extensive and famous in the US. His siege of the Leaning Tower by fixing ropes and establishing high points in 1961 also ranks up there.
By 1962, continuous alpine style in the Valley was the prefered standard.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there all, thanks for more sharing on this... i still have some more reading to do... had not got back here yet... but i will...
sure do love supertopo...
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Of course after Royal started the transition
to nuts in 1966 (he and Whillans and I used them
in Eldorado that year, in Septemeber), I started
using nuts more and more. It took a while to learn
to trust them, but they caught on fast. And I will
simply add that it didn't all happen in California.
There were those of us who spent half our lives in
Colorado and as much time as we could in the Valley
and other California climbing areas. Prior to Royal's
big push, several Boulder climbers were already
trying to get us to make the switch, such as Cub
Shaefer, who had climbed in England, if I recall,
but he kept showing me the machine nuts and how they
worked...
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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"it didn't all happen in California."
-cut to, Devil's Lake Wisc, late 60's; Jerry and Jay (age somewhere between 11 and 13) are climbing with Jerry's dad, Jerry (we were too young to drive, so he had Corvair™ed us up from Chicago), shouting encouragement.
I'm (Jay) on lead on some desperate 5.6 (remember this Devil's Lake, coulda been a death climb) I fumble with one of the nuts Jerry had got, somewhere, (stoppers were still years away, I think ,especially in the midwest.)
"Don't play with those toys boys, pound in some iron," offerred Jerry senior.
A few years later (still no driver's license) we were climbing the east face of Whitney, without a hammer.
The acceptance of clean climbing came pretty quick, all in all, but there was a bit of punctuated equilibrium...
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Interesting and all accurate posts: pitonless climbing came in to being in fits and starts all over the world starting a good 100 yrs ago. (Note on Jaybro's comment about Whitney's E face: wasn't the FA in 1931 accomplished basically 4th class, belaying by sitting on ledges, with no pins? Certainly with only a few at most. I'm sure this is in the original stories of the ascent.)
My recollection in the areas I climbed around 1970 (California and NE) was that the key advance that allowed even ordinary climbers to abandon their hammers was the introduction of the first generation of Chouinard brand (read: Frost?) wired stoppers, providing a superior replacement of blade pitons. Hexentrics made a difference too, but we cammed the crappy parallel sided hexes that preceded them anyway (poorly, admittedly), so it wasn't as much of a quantum leap as the nicely graded series of wired stoppers. For a year or two before those, we carried mixed racks, but once they appeared, hammers were largely gone.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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I would guess that the early British Himalayan exploration and climbing expeditions were organized and conducted under military supervision and/or with military supervision. The siege tactics on the big peaks likely evolved from the logistical demands required by large teams with military-like command structures. Smaller, less well funded expeditions seemed to be less siege oriented even in the early days of Himalayan climbing. The current popularity of alpine style climbing on big peaks is probably the result of quick travel times to and from the objective and better information such as maps and route knowledge.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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6 slings and a hex, clean enough?
For the record this is Steve Barnett of the
notorious Barnett self-belay system.
proper use of a chock...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The difference between competitive and non-competitive climbing as Messner defined it would be closer to the core style argument. Fair means has been the issue as long as tools and tactics have been around.
The Swiss narrowly missed bagging Everest without all the military overtones.
Shipton and Tilman were out on the forefront of Himalayan alpine climbing with minimal logistical support. No surprise that he had a conflict with eventual expedition's approach.
When Robbins wrote Save South Crack he advocated strongly for a seachange in our entire approach to meeting and defining meaningful challenge on the stone. The hammer had a mindset to go along with its use. To allow hammerless climbing to evolve, everybody had to take a small step backwards and learn to use and trust a entirely new and different set of tools.
Barnett edit:From Advanced Rockcraft.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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That was always my favorite illustration in ARC.
Mongrel, that's how I remember it. We were way too timid... though they had done it 4th class thirty/forty some yrs before our ascent it Was, a really big deal for us to tackle a 'big' route like that with out a hammer! I'd like to think we were fractal of the whole, at that time...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 22, 2017 - 04:04pm PT
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Nice, bump, Mouse. That certainly is the Cadillac of nut tools!
I always hated carrying those things. Like having a dagger on the rack is what I really wanted in my life.
Cool thread. I remember when it first popped up. We got the right answers and that was that. If somebody started a thread like this now it would be thought a troll!
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