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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 06:37pm PT
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I agree with Rincon. It is a mistake to start contacting all the various managers and make this an issue. Let it be.
Kris Solem
Monrovia CA
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 14, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
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It is perfectly legal to climb in the ANF. The only exceptions are areas that are affected by specific closures that have been "legally" imposed (e.g.: Williamson Rock closure).
Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists.
In the future, kindly tell the ranger they are misinformed and to talk to a supervisor before writing a ticket for a legal activity. Please get a name of this ranger so we can bring this to the attention of higher ups. If you actually are ticketed, I'd like to know and would be happy to discuss it/advise and assist you.
RVogel
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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Jul 14, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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In an agreement put together some years ago, climbing is not illegal. Placing bolts is. The ANF considers this "littering on federal property". Climbing is permitted in the canyon described. Using the bolts in situ is permitted. Placing new bolts is not. Pushing the issue or flooding the FS office with calls will probably not be helpful for climbers overall.
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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Well folks, it wasn't a troll. Two different forrest service people told me the same thing, "No Climbing." I posted it on the Taco to get input from the climbing community which I respect. I am happy to let the issue die off now.
But, who will help me pay the fine when I get the ticket?
Thanks for wrapping your collective minds around this one.
Peace,
Pete
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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Jul 14, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
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More info:
http://www.acfnewsource.org/environment/bolt_or_not.html
From inside this link:
Administered by the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, the U.S. Forest Service oversees land use in U.S. national forests. In 1998 the Forest Service banned bolting and motorized drills.
Peace,
Barbarian
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whatmeworry
Mountain climber
Pasadena, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
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Someone forgot to tell all the canyoneers in the San Gabes that placing bolts is illegal. There are huge numbers of new bolts in many of the popular canyons.
If bolts are littering then the ANF LEOs should focus on the San Gabriel River on any weekend. With the # of dirty diapers and other trash left by forest visitors we could pay for the Yellow Legged Mountain Frog survey work that has kept Williamson Rock closed for 2+ years now and has been postponed due to budget issues.....
http://williamsonrock.org/blog/
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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This from Barbarian's link:
"In 1998 Forest Services had imposed a similar ban on new bolting and was calling for the removal of existing bolts. According to the compromise, climbers can use and replace existing bolts but still cannot drill new bolts into the rock on Forest Service property."
Does this imply all Forest Service property through out the US?
Or just pertain to JT?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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Are you guys sure this isn't RC.com? So much outright misinformation. And take the attitudes (and false indignation) back to pre-school.
Placing bolts is NOT illegal in the ANF. Climbing is NOT illegal in the ANF.
Yes, if you get ticketed, send me an email. But, be Polite and Courteous and you will probably sort things out without getting one. The ranger may be misinformed, but if you act like a jerk, this doesn't put a good light on climbers or help your case if you get cited. I've defended other wrongfully accused (but polite) climbers.
[Edited to add: the link about bolting in Josh (and the tidbit about FS Rulemaking) has no bearing on the ANF and is so out of context that you can be excused for being confused.]
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apogee
climber
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Jul 15, 2008 - 01:51am PT
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Randy- thank you for the voice of reason and rationality.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 15, 2008 - 06:06am PT
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Fad Dad and colleagues of the summits.....
Useful knowledge for many things....
If you remain as ignorant as you reveal today, you will be progressively more cowed and victimized by government dolts, inherent to the effects of power. Your option is to progressively learn more knowledge, or grovel lower tomorrow.
Your choice. The competition is learning more knowledge.
In our nation, as opposed to Saudi Arabia and others, government personnel administer written law, already written in reviewable words on paper, not their personal whims like the Saudi king.
There is no law that requires a person to be polite and courteous to the stinking government thugs with police titles. In fact, the prevailing law, not the Park Service inferior laws, specifically grants greater liberties in describing the stinking government swine as swine and worse, than describing fellow citizens. If there were any law requiring a person to be polite and courteous to Forest Service thugs and malicious court judges, the common person could read the law and perform its written requirements so he could not be cited or jailed for not being ENOUGH polite and courteous.
The written law in the US serves all people equally, by law, not those who flatter Hitler and his Gestapo above those who criticize him and his thugs.
The more polite and courteous you are to the Forest Service Gestapo, the more psychological reinforcement they get for issuing more lucrative citations to cowed prey, for the same reason the Nazi Gestapo did the same thing. That is why the prevailing common law was established to allow stronger criticism of government scum, by judges who understood the value of the foregoing to protect their own offspring from that dangerous, known trend inherent to power.
"Established policy of land managers" is not written law. There is no lawful demand to obey "established policy of land managers". Ignorant fools obey it. It cannot be successfully enforced against a person with simple knowledge of what law is and how it functions.
Climbers have uniquely lost their rights more than other social sectors because they have been most easily cowed into obeying rhetorical illusions because they ask no questions when their idiot organization leaders keep telling them that they better obey established policy of land managers or else.
If you are not brave enough to serve as a test plaintiff for your rights, facing something so inconsequential as fines or jail, as is the case with the worthless American climbers, every American soldier in every war fighting for your rights was a fool.
BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A PLAINTIVE OR RISK JAIL. That process is what fundamentally repugnant lawyers fooled you into perceiving as your only option. Law schools only teach students how to be the most dishonest people in the world, fooling the most unquestioning people in the world.
Amusingly, you cannot understand the following words, even if you perceive these words to be a challenge to your thinking ability, and read them slowly, with a dictionary if you need one. You need only state, in a particular, short and efficient format requiring too much description for this forum comment, that you seek to obey the law, and need to be informed of the law so that you can obey it, and then ask, in a particular format, what the law is in regard to your proposed actions.
Done properly, no climbing regulations in the US remain in effect, and the government will hire extra personnel to make sure that no climber (climbing) is bothered by any government personnel for fear that an uninformed ranger issues a citation that gets his supervisor immediately fired and jailed without legal recourse.
Until you easily learn the KNOWLEDGE of what law is and how it functions in human minds, that which no lawyer is ever taught, you will gullibly believe that law is whatever some predator lawyer, judge, bureaucrat, AmerAC leader or idiot minion tells you is "law".
I have uploaded information on that process format many places, many times, for my amusement with the responses from self-induce ignorant people who mindlessly believe, rather than question, the lies they are told by TITLED and CREDENTIALED people, like self-serving lawyers, government dolts, American Alpine Club leaders, Access Fund leaders and their unquestioning minions.
Stop believing the adults. What they tell you is to maintain their power over you. Question them, with real questions, and write their answers, until you learn the questions that turn their minds against their own contradictions.
Stop pissing and moaning about somebody not telling you what you want to know in words that you can understand without having to think or offer anything in return (get something for nothing), in sound byte forums. Consider doing precisely what I suggest, that is your access to the knowledge... START ASKING QUESTIONS. ANSWER THEM. If you wish to do so.
If you do so, you will soon enough laugh yourself to tears at how long you were fooled by the adults who believed the lies of adults to maintain their stagnating ignorance of power above the advancing knowledge of reasoning.
Laughing myself to tears at the moment. The humans on Earth are the best comedy in the realm.
DougBuchanan.com
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 15, 2008 - 09:05am PT
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After reading about 10 lines of that sewage I've come to the conclusion that you must be very goodly edjumicated.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 15, 2008 - 10:52am PT
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Doug, you seem to be so wrapped up in your own rhetoric that you've failed to realize the reality. Why do you talk circles when just as easily you could (by your own testimony) give valid, clear answers to the questions being asked. Why muddle the subject more.
I could very legally be an a$$hole to you, but don't you think treating someone politely would result in a better person to person interface?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:02am PT
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"The humans on Earth are the best comedy in the realm. "
Your right, and as far as I can tell you are the headlining act.
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justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:08am PT
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The rangers were wrong. Best to just smile and nod and come back a different day.
Randy was on spot. I'll re-post for anyone who missed it the first two times.
QUOTE: "Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists.
In the future, kindly tell the ranger they are misinformed and to talk to a supervisor before writing a ticket for a legal activity. Please get a name of this ranger so we can bring this to the attention of higher ups. If you actually are ticketed, I'd like to know and would be happy to discuss it/advise and assist you.
RVogel"
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:10am PT
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Doug, when you make a long post like that, do you type it up from scratch each time? Or do you have a computer program that generates meaningless text?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 15, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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"QUOTE: "Please do not make a big issue out of this just because one misinformed Forest Service Employee stated something untrue. And don't start calling/writing and creating a problem where none exists."
Most districts are lightly staffed, so even "just one" misinformed ranger IS a big issue. We will keep running into that "just one" ranger again and again.
"The rangers were wrong. Best to just smile and nod and come back a different day."
Yes, if you are tooled that's all you can do, smile and let them ruin your whole day. That's why we should fix this problem now.
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2008 - 01:50pm PT
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Folks,
I received a fax from the San Gabriel River Station. I would be happy to provide it to anyone who would like it.
----------------------------------------------
"Pursuant to Title 36 of Federal Regulations, Section 261.50(b) the following acts are prohibited within any National Forest within the Pacific Southwest region:
Being on the road in possession of any equipment designed for, used for, or intended to be used for the suspension, jumping, or retrieval of any person or object from any road, bridge, or appurtenance thereof. 36 CFR 261.54(e)
Equipment associated with the prohibited activity includes but is not limited to: bungee, rubber, nylon shock, or otherwise elasticized cords, ropes, straps, webbing, harnesses, snatch pulley blocks, tackle, chains, carabiners, ascent or descent control devices, ankle or body braces capable of being readily attached to any suspension device and /or any vehicle, winch, or animal.
Any Federal, State, or local officer, or member of an organized rescue or fire-fighting force in the performance of an official duty is specifically exmepted from this order.
Done at San Francisco, California, This 28th day of June, 1991.
Violation of this prohibition is punishable by a fine of not more than $5,000.00 or imprisonment for not more than six months, or both (16 USC 551, 18 USC 3559 and 3571.
------------
This is the reason I was told climbing is not legal. I think it's a bit of a stretch.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 15, 2008 - 02:23pm PT
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That rock climbing is just a cover.
As soon as the ranger leaves we all start jumping from bridges!
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scuffy b
climber
watching the flytrap
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Jul 15, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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That reg doesn't say anything about climbing.
You can't be on the road with equipment.
Forget the climbing, you can be cited for possession of webbing!!
EDIT: don't carry your keys on a locking carabiner, either.
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sred
Trad climber
California
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Jul 15, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Fortunately, a lot of the SoCal climbing is in State Parks (e.g. Stoney Point, Malibu Creek), but wouldn’t that provision also eliminate climbing in Tahquitz -- and Williamson (if it ever reopens). Seems like the rangers of the Angeles and San Bernardino National Forests would have a hard time convincing anyone that they EVER interpreted that provision as something against climbing since it has been on the books for more than 15 years and Williamson was never closed for that reason. I betcha they don't close Tahquitz anytime soon!
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