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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 26, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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In an August post
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=932136&msg=932500#msg932500p
the following was posted:
The Munter Hitch has the disagreeable trait of twisting the rope below you, as you descend.
I got talking about belay devices with Jim Nelson one time. (For those who don't know him, he's hardcore old school, with vast alpine and rock experience). His opinion was that a Munter was sufficient for almost any situation, whether belaying or rappeling.
When I mentioned the way it twists the rope below when you are rappeling, he just laughed and said something like "Only if you don't know what you're doing."
Anybody else saying that, I'd have shrugged it off, but he was adamant that a Munter would not cause twists in the rope if it was used properly. We were indoors and he couldn't demonstrate, but I've since wondered. It mostly sounded like a matter of hand positioning, but...
Anybody out there know about this? Muntering without kinks?
"Many misinformed posts on ropes and knots could have been avoided if this book had been read beforehand."
And "this book"? --> Outdoor Knots , by Clyde Soles.
Re the question quoted, here's Clyde's pertinent part, Preventing Kinks:
Many climbers blame the figure-eight rappel device for twisting rope ... .
In fact, this is another case of improper usage. Holding the brake hand off
to the side is the culprit; ... . Instead, keep the brake hand below the figure
eight so that the rope above and below are parallel [rather, "in line"]. ...
Similarly, the Munter hitch is often accused of severely kinking ropes,
particularly if used for a rappel, but this is another case of pilot error.
It will add twists only when the brake hand is held off to the side -- really!"
*knudeNoggin*
ps: Btw, the so-called "Chongo Knot" in the above-cited thread
isn't a Butterfly ... , but a Single Harness Bend. Another simple way
to effect the same functionality would be to join ropes as usual
with an Offset Ring Bend (EDK), and immediately above/below
put in an Overhand eye knot (or Butterfly, but the Oh. retains the
offset aspect for later low-impact rope-pulling.
There are also clever (too clever ... ?) ways to incorporate it all
into a single knot which joins ropes AND provides an eye, and
even retains offset benefits.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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My experience with the munter is less twisting than a figure 8. With the munter I can feed the rope through the biner in a parallel and orderly fashion as to not get much twisting in the line, I cant do the same with an 8.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 26, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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I recently had to lower someone a full ropelength using a Munter. It went very smoothly, in fact easier than with an ATC.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
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Looking at it another way, using a 'standard' device (carabiner brake, ATC, Pyramid, Reverso, Grigri, etc etc) to rappel or lower is unlikely to introduce any twists or kinks to the rope, no matter how it is done. Use of a figure 8 or Munter is quite likely to do so, unless as mentioned arm/hand position is correct. Probabilities, and simplicity of use, suggest avoiding the figure 8 or Munter when possible.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
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YOu can get LESS kinks/twist in the rope by holding the break strand inline with the load bearing strand. NOT down next to your hip if you are repelling. But instead out in front of you. THis also provides more friction and you do not have the proble with the break strand running over the Gate of the carabiner.
When beleaying try to MANAGE the rope through the caribiner, DO not pull and force the hitch to move through the caribiner. The less tension on the hitch the better when it come to kinking.
Last placing your ATC etc.. on the Hot point(direct belay) with a large carabiner. Then RE-Rirect the break strand with a smaller LOCKING caribiner(this puts you in a position to BREAK), vs the break strand being above the hot/master point. YOU may want to use a autoblock if you are lowering a person of object the first few times.
In all try to keep the break in line with the devise. If you are rappelling with a ATC and have a harness with a belay loop. The break strands should be going right through your CROTCH, between your leg. Do not hold the rope off to your right of left..this will only cause more twist within the rope.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Agreed - like the carabiner brake, the hip belay and the body rappel, something that all climbers should know and occasionally practice.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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^^^ that reminds me, I watching another campy '50s sci-fi flick recently, there was a point where the cast had to descend into a cave. Fake cave, I think, but I was surprised to see all the actors (not their stunt doubles, in those days) using more or less correct dulfersitz technique to rappel.
They were also placing pitons, one of which (naturally) pulled out at a crucial moment.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 26, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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The story that goes with this pic was in the Who Beulah Was, a few weeks back:
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