Passing a knot on rappel

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Floyd Hayes

Trad climber

Hidden Valley Lake, CA

Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 17, 2009 - 04:23pm PT

What's the best way?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:28pm PT

Passing knots, especially large knots, can be very painful. You're better off not eating your rope in the first place.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'll go sit in the car now and wait until someone offers a non-smartass answer.

Serious edit: What do you have hanging off you? How to pass a knot on rap depends on what tools and supplies are available. Do you by any chance have jumars? Prussik cord?

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:29pm PT

Having 2 ascenders and 2 aiders is the easiest way.

rap down close to the knot

put your ascenders on the rope, above your rappel device
(you are clipped into slings on the ascenders, high enough
so they take your weight)

move your rappel device below the knot, and wrap the rope below it around your leg

move your ascenders down the rope until your rappel device takes your weight

take your ascenders off the rope

[Edit for Gene:] I don't think there is a need to tie in short (direct to the rope), because you already have 2 redundant points of contact with the ascenders.

Gobee

Trad climber

Los Angeles

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:31pm PT

I didn't know you could do that?
Better than Bran, works best with Hemp.

Gene

climber

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:34pm PT

The only thing I'll add to Clint's description is to tie in short while you go through the process.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:36pm PT

This is actually a good subject to explore. Obviously, if you've got ascenders and aiders, passing a knot is easy. But the less you're carrying, the more interesting it gets... all the way down to rigging prussiks out of your shoelaces.

Of course, if your shoes are slipper style, and you don't have even a single sling or biner on your harness, it gets more serious.

Floyd Hayes

Trad climber

Hidden Valley Lake, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2009 - 04:37pm PT

Thanks, Clint, sounds simple. No need then for a Munter hitch? As illustrated in "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" (p. 507 of vol. 7).

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:41pm PT

I saw a presentation by Simon Yates on Saturday, but wouldn't recommend his method of passing knots.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

Boise....

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:41pm PT

Naw...of course, you can if you wish. Not necessary.

Ed Bannister

Mountain climber

Riverside, CA

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:52pm PT

assuming two good ropes,
why and that the knot is at the anchor, why would you ever want to pass a knot?
raps longer than 165 or 180 feet have so much variation in friction from the weight of the dangling cord that raps over 200 feet are not woth it.
most cavers, with the rare mandated exception, rap no more that 200 feet at a time.
so, given that why would you ever need to pass a knot?

Floyd Hayes

Trad climber

Hidden Valley Lake, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2009 - 04:54pm PT

Lost Arrow Tip!

Josh Nash

Social climber

riverbank ca

Aug 17, 2009 - 04:58pm PT

passing a knot...
what you want to do is depress the gas pedal to gain speed. When you are closing on the knott, about a car length behind, put on your direction indicator light. turn the steering wheel just a little to move your vehicle into a free lane. continue to accelerate past the knott then return to your lane. That's how you pass a knotttttt!

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Aug 17, 2009 - 05:00pm PT

The safest way of passing the knot involves also clipping into a tied loop at the knot with your personal anchor, or cow's tail as they are referred to

Which is an excellent piece of advice, but you have to remember to leave enough of the free end of the rope sticking out of the knot to tie a loop. But if you do that it certainly cuts the danger way down.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 17, 2009 - 05:03pm PT

Had to do it once in Alaska. Descending an unexplored face we found that we were above a huge overhang and the only way to reach the glacier was by tying both ropes together. The knot was encountered fully 40 feet out away from the wall and with heavy packs passing the knot was EPIC!!! We ended up with 30 feet of retrievable rope which made the several hundred feet of mixed down climbing to the main glacier "rather spicy." My advice is don't get yourself into that position.

Clint Cummins

Trad climber

SF Bay area, CA

Aug 17, 2009 - 05:04pm PT

Floyd,

> No need then for a Munter hitch?

Not if you have 2 ascenders. For the rappel into the Lost Arrow notch, you can have the knot temporarily at the intermediate anchor, so the first person down can get around the knot at that anchor. The second person then lowers the knot down and passes it using the ascenders.

We used the 2 ropes total method for the Lost Arrow Tip last summer, and it worked great.
http://www.supertopo.com/rock_climbing/route_beta.php?r=yblalati

With a Munter hitch, you can pass the knot through the hitch, by unweighting the hitch briefly. I like to use the Munter hitch when rappelling on small diameter ropes. And also sometimes when belaying a long toprope with 2 ropes. But there are ways to avoid passing the knot when toprope belaying, by having the climber tie in short, when the knot is up at the anchor. You can also use 2 belay devices, and leave one clipped on at the knot. You still have to unweight the rope briefly to unclip the upper device if lowering the climber.

Jerry Dodrill

climber

Sebastopol, CA

Aug 17, 2009 - 05:11pm PT

What Clint said up thread.

But use a back up knot.

Also, if you rap with a grigri you can hang hands free while you rig the swap.

If you have two rap devices you can just take one ascender/aider. Put on the second device below the knot while still on the top one. Stand in the low step on the aider, pull the top device and sink into the lower one, below the knot. Use a back up knot, of course!

Its more fun when you're spinning in space. Edit: Jeez, Donini!

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Aug 17, 2009 - 08:34pm PT

Here's a pretty gear-minimal solution. No prussiks, ascenders, or aiders, no trying to feed a knot through something either. I've broken it into several steps, but the process is extremely simple.

1. Pull up the rope and install ATC (or whatever device you normally rap with) on rope immediately under knot. Tie it off with releasable hitch (Munter mule the standard choice) and clip to harness. Probably a good idea to also clip in a backup loop tied below ATC.

2. Install locker with Munter Hitch on rope and clip to harness with a sling long enough to put the Munter up just above head level (high but still reachable).

3. Rappel on extended Munter until hanging from tied-off ATC (the extension will allow the tied-off ATC to become weighted before the knot reaches the Munter).

4. Unlock the Munter biner, detach its connecting sling, and "pop" the Munter off the weighted line (try it---you can do this---the Munter does not have to be unweighted).

5. Continue rapping on the ATC, after undoing the backup loop.

Try this at least once in a controlled setting so you know how long the Munter extension has to be, because the only screw-up is if the knot reaches the Munter before the ATC below the knot is fully weighted.