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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 5, 2005 - 11:02pm PT
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Karl, this is for you and for Greg B.
You mentioned, at about post #185 on the other thread I began, (which has grown to ridiculous length), the extremely bad bolts on Space Babble, and asked whether it has seen any ascents in the last 20 years.
I know of at least one ascent within the last ten; Scotty Burk and Chris (?) did it, and I know several people who are aching to do it as soon as the old mank should get replaced.
Here is my proposal: let us go (if ASCA will donate gear, good, if not, I will split the cost with you), and replace every bolt on that route. Not only will the route begin to see traffic, but the anchors will be bomber enough to rap from, thus giving those who wish to bail from Kor-Beck a route down that does not clog up other parties thereon. Then all the bolts that have been added to Kor Beck can be removed, thus restoring the hole count to its original number.
That will leave us with: a better way down from Kor-Beck; a much nicer, cleaner, Kor-Beck; and an opportunity to see if people are willing to do Space Babble with the original amount of bolts once they know that the bolts are good.
What do you say? Shall we strike a blow for peaceable co-operation between two opposed ethical viewpoints?
I await your reply.
Ben Wah
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Ben
I think the idea of fixing the Space Babble anchors is a fine one. Folks with no sack can do Kor Beck and TR the Babble (perhaps like the Brits do on Gritstone, to prepare for the headpoint)
To my knowledge, the Kor Beck has no protection bolts so I assume you object to the rap bolts.
The problem in my mind is this. Very few parties summit Kor Beck, they rap. Kor Beck is also the rap route for Bircheff Williams (that's where we rapped after BW anyway)
What do you propose for rapping Kor Beck? (lots of parties rap before they hit Space Babble anyway) Even if I thought fixed pins were somehow better rap anchors than bolts, and even if I thought it was better to sling trees with webbing, I don't have authority to grant anyone permission to do anything. I'm not adding bolts to either route, and am against chopping bolts on either route.
Why torture the poor trees for the sake of a few grams of granite? Serenity and Sons has bolt rap anchors 95% of the way. The big exception is the tree at the very top, which has very tight slings and oozes tons of sap all the time.
Peace
karl
Funny you should mention Scotty Burke doing Space Babble. When did he do it? Scott told me once himself that he was considering adding bolts to his own Middle Cathedral route, Pieces of Eight. How he thinks at this moment is anybody's guess.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2005 - 12:52am PT
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Karl,
I have no ideas for how to rap Kor Beck before reaching the tree. Under my proposal, they would have to at least reach the tree before rapping. Remember though, Kor-Beck was originally a no-bolt route that summited. Bircheff Williams could also descend Space Babble. I know it makes Kor-Beck just a little less convenient (i.e. more committing), but I know many many people who are just itching to chop it without even providing an alternate way down (such as making the anchors on SB bomber again). I think it would send a good message to people from both camps if we collaborated on this; I do not like fighting over bolting issues, and I see here a way to accomodate most people without offending a soul. Perhaps we should do the replacement of SB without immediately taking out the Kor-Beck bolts, to give Mac and Co. some time to publicise it, so that when Kor-Beck does get cleaned up (I'm in favor of no fixed anchors at all on it, myself, just like the FA) it doesn't take people by surprise.
My schedule, with a new daughter and all, is pretty limited; email me and we'll see if we can't round up some gear and fix some lines.
Ben Wah
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sounds good to me. The funny thing about this is that I replaced bolts (pitch 2, 4 anchors) on Kor-Beck with my brother in '99, but I wanted to replace the anchors on Space Babble instead as the main rap route, but the Space Babble pitch 3 anchor said "poor belay" with no bolts and I wasn't going to add bolts to it, so we stuck with the bolted Kor-Beck belays.
Anyway, I asked Kauk about that p3 anchor on Space Babble maybe 3 years ago in Tuolumne, he said it should definitely be bolted. He also said he might do it himself, but I guess the Space Babble bolts are still bad?
The overall idea sounds good, and would actually help out people on Kor-Beck by having the rap route separate. The main thing is to make sure that folks can actually find the Space Babble raps. And we should get more input from other folks, since despite the picture often painted of the ASCA and then transferred onto me, I'm actually pretty far on the trad side of the spectrum. Karl always seems to be a diplomatic and reasonable dude, and he's opposed to chopping those anchors - so that gives me pause. Also, I've gotten a fair bit of flack from a variety of climbers for chopping a few bolts (Good Book, South Crack, Great White Book), but among the "hard core" folks everyone's anti-bolt, so that can give us a biased view of the climbing community. And like Karl said, if it protects a tree then maybe it's pretty short-sighted to worry about chopping it. Maybe the NPS in a couple decades will use documented evidence of tree damage to regulate climbing, and then we'll all be kicking ourselves for worrying about a couple bolts next to a tree.
Oh yeah, at least in '99 there WAS a protection bolt right near the top of the first pitch of the Kor-Beck (on the left at the first chimney-ish section), it was pretty darn new, but was missing the hanger. If it's still there it should be chopped and patched.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thanks Ben I think your approach in this thread is really positive.
As far as I know, it's always been possible to rap Kor Beck, and I think it should continue to be. (maybe check old Reid or Meyer's guides) The issue should be whether bolts are an acceptable replacement for fixed pin anchors and trees.
Seems to me that even the more traditional Middle Cathedral FA artists from the "ASCA" thread endorse replacing pin anchors with bolts since they last longer, are less of an eyesore (no slings required) and don't require repeated hammerings on the rock over time.
With that in mind, my suggestion is that the best place for the stauchest of traditionalists to relent on the "bolting ethic" is regarding the anchor situation on popular climbs, at least ones that are often rapped.
And first three pitches of Kor Beck are easier than the two above, so it's pretty common for folks to fail after three and need to rap.
Failing at that, if you "need" to start a chopping war, I believe you'll need to establish bomber fixed pin anchors all the way down, unless you're statement is that things should be made "retro-inconvenient" more than they were in the past.
There are very few trees that like to be constant rap anchors. I think it would be easy for tree damage to be studied and held against climbers (similar to how impacts at Josh have been studied and used to regulate) so I think we should give extra consideration to not revert to tree anchors whenever possible.
Peace
Karl
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Great idea Ben, and great effort to find common ground.
I would like to express my opinion: given the popularity of rapping routes on Middle instead of finishing on the Kat Walk, I think that bolted rap stations on the Kor Beck should be acceptable.
I know that you feel strongly about adding any bolts that were not placed on the first ascent. But times move on Ben and it is better to protect the rock, the trees and the challenging leads (and avoid ugly slings) than to worry about rap stations on heavily traveled routes. Not many of us are too worried about double bolted belays or bolted rap stations if they 'are for the public good.'
Just one man's opinion.
Best, Roger
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2005 - 11:21am PT
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Considering the truckloads of huge trees the NPS has been lately carting out of the Valley, they haven't a leg to stand on moaning about occasional trees on rocks, IMHO. However, you guys are right that they probably will.
Karl, much as I do like the "retro-inconvenient" idea (great word you coined there), I know it will never fly. But I do wish to see the SB bolts replaced; I know people rapped it in the past, maybe with the rope setup now considered standard (200') the "Bad belay" can be skipped. I think it worth a long look.
Greg, I'm sorry you catch so much flak that is undeserved. I know exactly how you feel, since as a Christian I still occasionally get yelled at for the Spanish Inquisition (?). I guess it goes with the territory. I find that all the grief I am given really makes me examine myself to make sure I am living up to what I preach. And then I get yelled at more.
You gotta love it.
When can we get started?
Ben Wah
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Khun Duen Baad
climber
Retirement
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Don't worry Ben, you'll be taking heat for the American Inquisiton and the Crusade sequels soon enough.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Has anyone been on Kor Beck recently? The last post on the climbing route beta is from last September and said the route had a lot of loose rock from rockfall. I was wondering what shape the route is in.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 13, 2005 - 09:20pm PT
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I like your idea Ben. I'll help if you need an extra hand.
I'll stir the pot a little more and say that the version of the story that I heard about the poor tree ("saved for a few ounces of granite" or whatever) on Kor Beck was that it was in the way, a pain in the ass, and a particular individual who liked to do the bottom part of the route after work chopped it down and added the bolts. I did not do the route until after the tree was gone, so I don't know personally.
Truth is with or without bolts, folks won't top out on it anymore probably b/c the topo that they now own merely refers to the upper pitches as loose and lame and does not describe them beyond that. I actually disagree with most of the gripes that y'all have about the Supertopo, but I do think that topoing the bottom pitches of great adventure routes and not only omitting but also disrespecting the upper pitches is bad propaganda.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2005 - 10:04pm PT
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Yes, I have witnessed many people cutting down trees when they are in the way of a climb. Just as a society cuts a swath through their impendence to make access to towards their goals.
The second sentence is fragmented. I’m a village idiot. Do any of you educated folks know why?
I don’t ......
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2005 - 12:35am PT
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M,
As you know pretty well, my schedule is somewhat tight. If you can get the necessary hardware from Barnes (you probably have more access to him than I) maybe we can go fix some lines and look around. email me and we'll confab.
Sorry, Werner; though I detected something wrong with the sentence, I don't know whether it is fragmented or what. I can speak and write the language, but I'm terrible at dissecting it.
What on earth is a gerund?...
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