Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 14, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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Need some input from San Gabriel valley climbers on this one. My climbing partner and I have spent the last couple of years aiding old bolt ladders in Millard Canyon (near the waterfall).
We've set up a haul, practiced lower outs, etc.
I was stopped by the ranger yesterday and told that it was illegal to climb and that if he saw me, I would receive a pricey ticket.
I called the Forest Service today and discovered that climbing is indeed, illegal in the Angeles National Forest. Is this all related to the Williamson Rock closure? Apparently, Altadena Search & Rescue are the only folks allowed to use ropes and such gear to ascend rocks. Permits are not available to anyone else.
Anyone else run into this issue?
Peace,
Pete
(edit for spelling/grammar)
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Piton Ron
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 10:58am PT
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Have your lawyer contact them to ask if "climbing" is outlawed or just the use of safety equipment.
That should get them thinking.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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heh, then if gear is outlawed, then Altadena SAR will have a reason for going there again.
hhahaha
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Sewellymon
climber
.....in a single wide......
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:03am PT
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Specifically who did you talk w/ at the Forest Service?
News to me (and everybody else in So Cal). I question it's voracity.
Not that there is much to climb in the San Gabs, but there is a bit of top roping to be had (the Horse Flats TR wall, Mt. Pacifico, other obscurities...). And for that matter, you'll likely never see a ranger, or anybody else at those venues..
Also amazing you actually saw a ranger not sitting behind the wheel of a vehicle (or did you get tooled in the parking lot?
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Pistol Pete
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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Sewelly,
Talked to someone at the San Gabriel River station, can't remember her name. She said climbing was okay in Eaton Canyon, but not in Angeles National Forest. I got tooled walking through the campground. Ranger claimed it was a safety issue. Followed me all the way to the Falls. I sat ther for a good hour- at leats he picked up some trash.
-Pete
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:13am PT
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Time to sting the Angeles National Forest and give them some bad press! They seem to be spending a lot of $$$ on new building
projects these days...any connection?
Need to get ANF rangers on video saying 'Sorry No Climbers!'
and post it on Youtube. Then email the link to every news
agency you can think of!
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Sewellymon
climber
.....in a single wide......
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:14am PT
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ha ha ha "climbing is OK in Eaton Canyon" ha ha yea uh huh
what did the Lady Tool say were the prime objectives? Dirt hummocks, climbed using snow pickets?
If they banned roped climbing, no loss whatsoever in terms of actually climbing we'd be missing out on.... but it's the spirit of the thing. If this jurisdiction can out-of-hand ban roped climbing, it starts a slippery slope.
Calling Mr. Sketchy! Need a super hero, and fast!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:29am PT
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I called.... I asked if climbing was indeed illegal in the ANF... the lady transfered me to her boss... he said, "it is illegal to do any technical climbing or use any equipment designed for climbing in the ANF".
I asked him for the statute that would show the ban.... he say, " the only statute I need is what them boys did on the South Face of Half Dome. That ain't happening in my forest," and then he hung up......
(ok... that was total bullshiit... I never called)
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Piton Ron
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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LOL LOL
Troublemaker!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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New leadership & personality conflicts at the top at ANF?
what caused such a big shakeup of people?
--from their web page:Feb 14,2008
Forest Supervisor Jody Noiron has named L’Tanga Watson, David R. Conklin, Lisa Northrop and Marty Dumpis to leadership positions for the Angeles National Forest. Each replaces a key department head that either retired or moved on to another position in the agency
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Rokjox
Trad climber
boys, I dunno.
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Jul 14, 2008 - 11:42am PT
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Too late. I already typed a respectful query citing my lack of knowlege of the closure and requesting an explanation, perhaps to be passed on to 10,000 Californian climbers who have never heard of it. I will, of course, pass on the reply...
Acess Fund would take a year and 10 executive meetings before they would EVER say anything, and that is if they thought it was worth spending time on.
Do your own dirty work. If everyone on this thread wrote today a 5 minute letter, the closure would evaporate. Nobody wants to stand up in front of 10,000 people and defend a bogus restriction.
IMHO.
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Sewellymon
climber
.....in a single wide......
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:05pm PT
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Jox,
i got no problem hounding The Man. Can call, email, show up on their front door.. will let the assorted masses know what kind of feedback I receive. ..
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
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Eliminating all the climbing regulations in the US is amusingly easy. There is no prevailing law authority for climbing regulations beyond the prevailing laws applying impartially to all people for universal human actions.
If climbing is a lawful human action anywhere in the federal jurisdiction, it is lawful everywhere in the federal jurisdiction, for the reason it is lawful anywhere, by superior law. If you perceive a reason it is not lawful, ask yourself if the reason does not constitute a verifiably valid different action such as harassing a nesting falcon (within 100 feet), within PREVAILING law, not within inferior law and rhetorical illusions.
As long as there is no national climbers organization which does that for climbers, as its primary reason for existence, and conveys the effecting knowledge to climbers, these type problems are perpetual and lucrative budget excuses for many inherently corrupt government agencies, and perpetual donation excuses for the inherently corrupt American Alpine Club, Access Fund and all the other environmentalist "climber" or "access" local organizations.
Laughably gullible climbers and equipment companies keep dumping their money into those scam organizations for the same reason laughably gullible gun owners keep dumping their money into the National Rifle Association, and never ask the obvious questions.
As long as the only climbers attempting to convey the knowledge of how to eliminate climbing regulations are rhetorically attacked or denigrated by the aforementioned and their gullible supporters serving their money income above the rights of climbers, those with the knowledge are laughing and enjoying the show.
Enjoy the show.
In the future the American climbers who keep believing the government, AmerAC, Access Fund, and the established climbing magazines, instead of questioning them, are going to be described as the dumbest, most laughably gullible sorts of climbing history. The Europeans are currently laughing at the dumb American climbers under fiefdom rulers.
Let me know if any significant group of climbers ever seriously wants to solve the problem. The offer has been made for 25 years. But the Soviet people were fooled into asking no questions for 70 years, so the US climbers can claim a lesser level of unmitigated stupidity.
DougBuchanan.com
AlaskanAlpineClub.org
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The Warbler
climber
the edge of America
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
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Consider joining ACSD, Allied Climbers of San Diego - http://www.alliedclimbers.org - and contribute to our growing power to protect climbers' rights in the National Forest. In San Diego's Cleveland National Forest, they're trying to stop climbing with bogus bird closures. We have put up a good fight for a year and a half, and it ain't over yet, but we've set them back a bit.
If it comes down to it, I advocate civil disobedience to force them to make an arrest, and then justify it in court. Pricey, but worth it - it potentially means no more climbing on USFS land, across the country, if they prevail. All user groups need to gather forces and resources to stop the USFS from denying our rights.
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medusa
Trad climber
culver city
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:23pm PT
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(Night Stealth missions and night vision goggles and a 45.cal) Looks like there will be lots of free bolthangers to use some where else. Nice!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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Uh oh, lets' not get Doug started...
Seriously though, if climbing is illegal in the ANF, what about that big rock with lots of routes on it called Williamson Rock that, until a recent closure due to a pending environmental review, was perfectly legal. What about Horse Flats? Does that also mean that canyoneering is also illegal since it often requires equipment?
I suspect that the suspension of climbing at Williamson has been misinterpreted and handed down as a climbing ban. I'm not up on the C.F.R. or U.S.C., but I suspect if they're going to prohibit a recreational activity on recreational land, there would be a more official pronouncement of that ban.
The unfortunate truth is that land managers often find it easier to simply ban an activity rather than attempt to regulate it, particularly where they perceive liability issues. It may be they're now applying the same logic to environmental issues.
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Kofi Donny Annan
climber
darkest of africa
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:32pm PT
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I think Fat Dad hit the nail on the head.
Spewy was right- you could TR a lifetime at all those areas (apart from that bolt ladder next to the Tourist waterfall)and never see a soul.
But most importantly- DOUG B = LEB!!!! Took quite awhile for that truth to be revealed.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 14, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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It is legal to rockclimb in the ANF unless posted otherwise.
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