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John Moosie
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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LOL, Crowley, you dug up a real gem. That is one of the funniest things I have read in a while. Just replace Republicans with Democrats and replace Iraqi government with U.S. government and you would have my feelings. Haha.....Thanks.....
Our current government is such a mess right now. yeesh..
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 13, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
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That article is like something from 'The Onion'. In fact, I just studied the page for a while to make sure it wasn't a spoof of Yahoo news.
But it's real, apparently. And that's even funnier!
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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May 13, 2007 - 09:58pm PT
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I like the part at the end where he asks, "if we give up prematurely, will the terrorists be back here on the, in the US?"
I like his logic, since we have soldiers there, it has kept the US borders sealed to terrorists entering US soil. Once 100,000 troops return to US soil, the doors to the US will look like they have been flung wide open again to terrorists.
That is why no more Saudi's have attacked the US since 9/11. Because of troops in Afg. and Iraq. What Saudi would dare do that again, given the dire consequences to their family and country?
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John Moosie
climber
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May 13, 2007 - 10:40pm PT
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But that is one of the logics of the Republicans. They really do think that because we are fighting them over there that they can't put the resources together to come here.
They completely ignore the fact that before 9/11 there were very few attacks here simply because its more difficult for subversives to operate here and there aren't that many terrorist willing and able to come to America . The Moslem community here in America is integrated, but if we keep demonizing them here, then more and more of them will be willing to provide support to the terrorist. Maybe that support will only go so far as not saying anything, but that might be all that is needed.
Our country is very narrow sighted right now. We also ignore the fact the we are creating more people who are willing to use terrorism, because they feel hopeless.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 13, 2007 - 11:31pm PT
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Mr Moosie writes:
"We also ignore the fact the we are creating more people who are willing to use terrorism"
You don't think our being attacked on 9-11-01 created a bunch of people here who are willing to kick some Muslim Extremist Ass, wherever we find it?
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 12:12am PT
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Mr. Chaz,
Of course people here want to kick ass. But how does our kicking ass in Iraq make us more safe from terrorism? Especially considering they have been proven to have had nothing to do with 9/11.
Now we just look like a bully and we are the ones who look dangerous. You say Scared people fight back. Well that works both ways. We are creating more potential for people to want to attack us.
Iraq was contained.
It was mostly a secular country, meaning it wasn't full of religious extremist.
Now it is full of religious extremist and heading towards worse. EDIT: Because of us !!!
Of course I wanted to stop Saddam Hussian. But I am wise enough to see that the people aren't ready to govern themselves and when you create a power vacuum, then worse people can fill that vacuum.
You claim to be for less government intervention. Yet now in Iraq, if we want to stabilize it, then we will probably have to be there for 40 years. With no guarantees that they will be stable after that. Much like Vietnam which had French rulers for many years before we stepped in. This is more government, not less.
It never works to force people into a new form of government. They have to be ready. At its current cost, we could have kept up the military barrier we had before the war for hundreds of years versus what we have spent in just the last 6 years.
It costs more and is the very opposite of LESS government.
Please think about this Chaz. You aren't dumb. We have more government in our lives today to solve what is mainly a police problem and a social problem. Well fed, happy people don't become terrorist. But you wrongly attack people, create havock in their lives and you bet you, they will get pissed and want revenge.
We have a predominately stable Moslem community in this country because we welcomed them and gave them equal oppertunity. And this stablilty causes them to want to protect America by not allowing terrorist to opperate here. That is what makes us great. We treat people equally. Yet we can not force our type of government on people who are not ready for it. Even in Cuba. It has been suggested the we just Kill Castro and all of our problems would disappear. But would they? Probably not because the majority of the people there are not ready for democracy. We would create a power vacuum which could easily be filled by someone worse. Then what, we kill another leader, and then another. This is what leads to people hating us. How would you feel if some country decided it was going to mess with our form of government? The communist wanted to. We hated them. Yet we seem to think that it is okay for us to force another country to accept our type of goverment. EDIT: We did this in Iran and that is where some of their hatred comes from. We keep interfering in others lifes with our GOVERNMENT. This is more government not less.
How do you stop this endless merrygoround of you scare me so I will scare you. We stop it by helping countries see that they have nothing to fear from us. That we wont invade them if they leave us alone. Yet we lost that when we invaded Iraq because they WERE leaving us alone. They weren't involved in 9/11.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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May 14, 2007 - 12:44am PT
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Maybe they did choose to enlist, and we don't think so, because we don't listen to their voice. Bush doesn't either, or he would hear that just modifying the existing game plan isn't working. And this logic like "it must be working, terrorists haven't struck yet in the US" is just like my neighbor's logic of putting a brick on a chair on his roof to keep the lightning storms away, well, it has worked so far so he believes it must be true.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 14, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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Chaz blurted: "You don't think our being attacked on 9-11-01 created a bunch of people here who are willing to kick some Muslim Extremist Ass, wherever we find it? "
Uh yeah...I think that is a part of the problem. You're so busy beating your chests about who is right and who is tough and completely forgetting to actually try to solve the problem. Not sure if you've noticed or not but a severe ass-kicking hasn't fixed anything.
Taliban Status: Ass-kicked. Currently reformed and waging a guerilla war against US troops and the Afghani gov't using suicide and other tactics perfected in Iraq.
Al Qaeda Status: Ass-kicked. Currently waging violent jihad in many countries around the world. Leveraging lessons learned in Iraq and Afghanistan to make life miserable for their enemies. Current recruitment drive is overloaded, as opposed to that of the US military which is flailing miserablly short of their goals even with hundreds of millions of $$$ in extra incentives.
Unites States Status: Still puzzled as to why "severe ass-kicking foreign policy" hasn't worked like it did while being war-gamed around lunch table in the 7th grade. Conservatives blame liberals for being weak and not allowing them to be "more brutal" in their tactics. Liberals still have feelings hurt about being called nasty names in 2003 and blindly focused on trying to make Sean Hannity cry.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 14, 2007 - 01:39am PT
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We have been extremely restrained in this limp-wristed *war* on terror.
The last two countries who found themselves on the recieving end of a serious SuperPower Ass Kicking haven't caused any problems for anybody for the last 60+ years.
They now know better.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 14, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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"They now know better. "
The best part about living as if life were a bad action movie is that there is always a sequel....
The last two countries that received a serious ass kicking from us (before 9/11) were Iraq and Vietnam. Vietnam won and as for Iraq....
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 14, 2007 - 01:55am PT
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Crowley writes:
"655,000 Liberated Iraqies bow down in their graves in deference to Dubya and Paul Wolfowitz"
Where do you get this "655,000" number?
Please Advise.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 14, 2007 - 01:56am PT
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Chaz, its the rough number of Iraqi civilian casualties since the beginning of our invasion. Why are you so opinionated and uninformed. Please advise...
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 14, 2007 - 01:58am PT
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Crowley,
You know how to post links on here.
Post one to back up your bogus made-up "655,000" number.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 14, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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I call bullsh#t.
Crowley = Bullsh#t.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 14, 2007 - 02:06am PT
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hey chaz, ya genius, we weren't attacked on 9/11 by another country, so whose 3rd world ass are you gonna super-power-kick to get even?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 14, 2007 - 02:10am PT
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Crowley,
I don't see no "655,000" number in your link there.
Crowley = Bullshit!
Matt,
Listen to Fattrad.
He gives you good advice.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 14, 2007 - 02:20am PT
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that's perfect-
"i can't answer that question, so you just shut up, and i am badass, and i can raise my voice THIS LOUD!!!"
dipsh#t.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 14, 2007 - 02:21am PT
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If what you're saying is true, Crowley, it should be pretty simple to just post up the link you got that "655,000" number from.
Unless you're bullshitting.
Crowley = Bullshit!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 14, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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Interesting how "For violent post-invasion deaths, the male-to-female ratio was 10-to-1, with most victims between 15 and 44 years old."
Sounds like the warrior demographic.
Perhaps 90% of these guys had it coming.
How many were killed by Americans?
And how many were killed by people who aren't Americans?
Please Advise.
I've found the Iraqi War Dead number as low as 41,000. The U.N. says aprox 100,000. That Crowley would worship his "655,000" number as gosphel tells me more about Crowley than it does about what is actually going on in Iraq.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 02:42am PT
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The better question Chaz would be how many were dying before we got there. Remember your argument that we were saving them from Saddam.
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