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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 20, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
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As I was standing at the base of Serenity Crack yesterday I noticed a new '1st' bolt on Maxine's Wall. I always felt the crux of the first pitch was the tenuous friction and edging 15' up to the first bolt. It appears some weak-minded putz felt compelled to add a bolt 6' lower. Kind of surprised this same person didn't add bolts to the third class approach moves.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
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I placed it a couple of weeks ago.
My partner told me that back in the 70s, there used to be a fixed pin before the first bolt.
You can see the pin scar at the overlap there.
It looks like some rock broke off at the pin scar, as it's very shallow there now and you can't place clean gear there.
It used to be an aid climb, after all.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 20, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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Oh no.....grab a camp chair and get your place in line!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
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Almost centered, too.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 20, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
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Popcorn time. With brewers yeast, of course.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nov 20, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
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Good call Clint,
When ever I question first ascent stuff you are the one I ask.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Nov 20, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
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This could be good. Not the bolt.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Nov 20, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
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Wasn't there a bolt war on the first pitch of Serenity? Did it get resolved?
Odd if another one starts nearby.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 20, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
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I have a 10 foot 1 inch pole for sale.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Nov 20, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
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My partner told me that back in the 70s, there used to be a fixed pin before the first bolt.
I remember the fixed pin back in 1973 when I led Maxime's Wall. Probably my first 5.10a lead.
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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Nov 20, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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so much anticipation
but only silence...
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2017 - 09:35pm PT
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Clint. I'm saddened at your bolt addition to this route. I doubt incredibly that there was a fixed pin below the first bolt. There's no crack before the two flakes where there currently reside two ancient angles. The aid climbing below the first original bolt consisted of hooks (a couple of old shallow drilled holes can be seen).
I first did this pitch back in 1980. Definitely no pin below the first bolt then. Think about how many folk braved the initial 15' of friction in the past 37 years that I can attest no fixed pin before you added a stainless steel admission of defeat. I know we're not debating anything earhshatteringly important but I thought the climbing community at least agreed that we shouldn't add new bolts to existing routes without the first ascent's agreement. You didn't replace a fixed pin. There hasn't been one there for about forty years (if there ever was one).
I'm glad that we have a forum in which to discuss these matters. I want to make sure my voice is heard. When it comes to bolting, less is usually more.
Clint, I've never removed a bolt before, but if I decided to remove this one what would be the best way to do so to minimize impact to the rock?
Thanks.
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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Nov 20, 2017 - 10:38pm PT
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Nov 20, 2017 - 10:51pm PT
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If it's true that there hasn't been a piton there in 40 years, then there doesn't need to be a bolt now. If there was a piton which has recently gone missing due to rock failure then a bolt maybe makes sense. It's been several years since I climbed it and I don't remember what the deal was.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:18am PT
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I doubt incredibly that there was a fixed pin below the first bolt. There's no crack before the two flakes where there currently reside two ancient angles. The aid climbing below the first original bolt consisted of hooks (a couple of old shallow drilled holes can be seen). I have seen those shallow drilled holes.
As I recall, they are near the original first bolt?
I think the original first bolt may have been placed by standing in a short sling ("hero loop") on the now-missing fixed pin.
(photo on MountainProject - flake with pin scar is under rope)
If you get back there and look more closely, the pin scar is very clear.
It's under a flake, similarly shaped to the upper 2 with fixed pins.
It seems fairly clear that the flake broke off at some point after repeated piton placement and removal, leaving a closed seam with a small pin scar.
If the above doesn't help, just listen to Bruce and John who were there before the first time you did it and clipped the fixed pin.
It's a replacement (bolt for fixed pin), even though there was a gap of about 40 years. I could have reduced the gap to maybe 7 years, but I didn't know until recently that there used to be a fixed pin there.
If it's true that there hasn't been a piton there in 40 years, then there doesn't need to be a bolt now. I mostly agree with this - the idea that "people have been doing it for years without; why change it [back]?" I think the main reason this sounds good is that there is a "shared experience" from those 40 years, where what I had to do was similar to other people and how I climbed it the last time. Although when I think back on it, things were slightly different each time.
My first time on it was in a September heat wave, late 1970s. My partner (Chris Kaiser) made it to the bolt, but his fingers were getting sizzled on the hot rock, so he was desperate to clip it. He grabbed a biner from the rack, but it didn't fit through the homemade hanger! His fingers were sweating and he was sketched, so he grabbed the hanger. But it was super hot from the sun, so it made his fingers sweat even more! As his fingers started sliding down the hanger, he grabbed it with his other hand, but it slid slowly down as well. I desperately scanned the base for anything that might help, and I saw an old 1/2" tieoff loop. I tossed it up to him and he caught it, threaded it through, clipped, and lowered off. But now that he had clipped the bolt, the risk was gone, so I wanted to lead it. I set off in the state of the art shoes at the time (EBs). Past the 2 fixed pins, placed a #7 hex in the flake, and I used a wired nut to cinch on the upper 2 hangerless 1/4" bolts. I was so psyched to climb (and mostly lead) a Yosemite 5.10, even though it was well known as a very well protected one, once you got to the first bolt.
When I look back, each time was a little different, though.
Next time I was climbing in Fire's, which had sticky rubber and made the whole thing about 5.9. And I used chalk then also.
Later times, I placed a #3 Friend in the upper flake.
Even later, the slab moves got more polished and it got harder again.
Eventually the bolts got replaced with 3/8", even the hangerless ones in the upper part where it's not that hard (maybe 5.7).
Probably none of these differences are as big as having fixed pro before the original first bolt. It's true that it's not really "needed", but people used to clip fixed pro there in the 70s, and someone felt it was useful enough at the time to leave a pin fixed there.
For me the question was more like:
"People have done it without, but people have also done it with - is there value in restoring it to the 70s state (as close as feasible)?"
I knew some people might be bummed because it does not have the same runout to the first bolt. (If it helps, you still have to get your feet above the lowest bolt to reach the old first one, so you still have to make a committment).
To me, the climb was always known as being about the best protected 5.10a in the Valley. It seemed like nobody was doing it anymore because of the runout to the first bolt. So I thought restoring the lowest fixed pro from the 70s would have some value, larger than the partial loss of shared experiences, plus the 25 minutes it took for me to drill and place it.
As for the 40 year gap, it could have been shorter if people knew the fixed pin used to be there, and if they cared. At the time, nobody was really even replacing bolts....
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 05:44am PT
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This idea that people should continue to use worse and worse FPs for pro and anchors that are loosening over time over the decades is nonsense. The ones still there in Maxines are 30-40 years old...its a joke.
This begs the question of replacing the 2 existing fixed pins with new pins if it is possible to get good placements, or replacing with bolts if not.
What about this reasoning on formerly pin protected sections(some cruxes) of routes such as the East Buttres of El Capitan, Third Pillar of Dana, ...?
IMO, fixed pins on TPOD are fine but no bolts, on EBEC a bolt is fine.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 21, 2017 - 06:47am PT
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I first climbed it in ‘75(?) with Ken Yager, and there was def a pun there
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:48am PT
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I'm with K-tut on this. Fixed gear is fixed gear. Maybe on the FA place the pin, but go back or give the OK for someone else to put in a bolt. I hadn't heard that story about DNB, a route I've done twice. Damn.
BAd
Oy. Found the story of the DNB accident. It appears no fixed gear was part of the anchor, however.
There was no evidence that bolts or other fixed protection were involved in the anchor.
Protection Pulled Out—Fall on Rock, California, Yosemite Valley, Middle Cathedral Rock
Accident Reports
Accident Year:
Publication Year: 2002
PROTECTION PULLED OUT-FALL ON ROCK
California, Yosemite Valley, Middle Cathedral Rock
On July 12th at 1:00 p.m., a fisherman in Yosemite Valley reported seeing two climbers fall from high on Middle Cathedral Rock. After speaking with this witness, I hiked up to the base of the wall, where I found the bodies of Myra Eldridge of Boulder, CO, and Thomas Dunwiddie (ages unknown) of Denver, CO, just east of the Direct North Buttress route.
No one else witnessed the accident. Its exact cause will never be known, but certain things are clear from the condition of the climbers’ equipment at the time they were found.
The team was leading with two 9mm ropes, and both climbers were properly tied to both ropes. Dunwiddie was equipped as leader, with each of his two ropes passing through Eldridges’s belay device (an ATC). About 25 feet of each lead rope separated the two climbers; no lead protection was found on either rope.
Their anchor—which appears to have pulled in its entirety during the accident—consisted of the following. One ?-inch Alien and one #4 Black Diamond Stopper were clove-hitched together to one of the lead ropes approximately three feet from Eldridge’s tie-in point. Two double-stem Camalots, .5 and .75, were each independently clove-hitched about a foot and a half apart on the other lead rope with 15 inches separating the lower piece from Eldridge’s tie-in point. There was no evidence that bolts or other fixed protection were involved in the anchor.
All of the anchor pieces were severely damaged, though it is impossible to know whether that damage occurred when they were pulled out or during the fall and final impact. Nevertheless, the two Camalots were each bent in a similar way suggestive of a severe downward force after being placed in a vertical crack.
A loose quick-draw and a few carabiners were also found at the base. Their original purpose could not be determined, and they may have simply unclipped from the falling climbers—a common occurrence.
Analysis
Both Dunwiddie and Eldridge were skilled climbers, and in the days prior to their deaths they had completed a number of challenging free and aid routes in the Valley. Based on the location of the bodies, and on a topo of the Direct North Buttress found in their possession, they were probably on the DNB at the time of their accident. Rated at 5.10c and known for both its length and route finding difficulty, the DNB includes several sections of “run out” climbing and loose rock.
What can we learn? This accident hits close to home for most climbers because the party involved was very experienced with difficult climbing and familiar with Valley rock—as have been at least a third of Yosemite fatalities, historically. Other factors, such as rock fall from above, may have been involved, but the prime suspects are basic anchor and leading concepts that all of us are often tempted to ignore: avoiding anchors in suspect rock, sharing the load to an adequate degree, and stuffing in that first (and second) lead piece right off the belay. If you can’t meet these criteria, continue on with the realization that your survival may depend only on your climbing skill and on the quality of the next handhold. At least five other cases of complete anchor failure (protection pulling out—not breaking) have occurred in the Park in the last 30 years. (Source: Lincoln Else, Climbing Ranger, Yosemite National Park)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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Clint knows Yosemite history really well.
Me I don't know sh!t, I just climbed there.
He's an incredibly responsible person with bolts, pins, nuts, and cams.
If he says bolt needs here then bolt will be there.
I did Maxines wall in those dumb RR blue boots a few times in 71.
Scary .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:21am PT
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Lots of commentary for a mediocre climb at best. Like Werner, I would defer to Clint in this case. Kingtut says there should be two big juicy bolts where the anchors are questionable. Hmmmm....slippery slope reasoning when you seperate the in situ anchors from in situ pro.
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