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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 10, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
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The more folks you climb with, the more you learn the 'ethical approach' that others outfit themselves with when putting up a line.
Bruce Morris posted up something... The Burke Rules... that was thought of as a rule, but also subject to conditions and circumstances. Specifically:
Oct 9, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
I led the 3rd pitch in one push, hand-drilling all the bolts from natural stances without hooks or standing on in place bolts. About an hour? Those were the rules: This is your pitch. If you hang or lower, it belongs to your partner to take over from you and finish. The leader has to put in the double-bolt anchors too after leading his pitch in one continuous flow.
These were the conventions developed by Scott Burke and practiced by David Caunt and Rob Settlemeyer and others.
A stern school but taken to an ever higher level of strictness on "Escape From Freedom". Compared to Escape, GD is weak sauce.
For those of us with feet that have a hard time drilling a full pitch by stance it always seemed a great way, and fully an option, to share a line to swap the sharp end.
But it was still convention that if the other partner wanted to go as high as they could or wanted to, it was fully their right. Leader's prerogative.
But Bruce almost makes it seem like it was a burden or a duty that the 2nd up had to push as high as they possibly could. Perhaps I'm reading into it.
Was that your experience (not just Bruce)? Duty to go as high as well as you could, or merely an option to go as high as you wanted knowing that you would get another turn after your partner drilled a few holes, placed a few RPs, ran out a little, etc?
Was it a self imposed rule? Talked about? Shouted up from the belay from behind a beer with a laugh and a dry sarcasm? :)
Good times to be sure either way.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Oct 10, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
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Bump for style points
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 10, 2016 - 09:39pm PT
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I say it's time to swap leads when you get tired, thirsty, bored, or your hand starts hurting because you are a cubicle dweller, not a grizzled construction worker, and all that hammer bangin' starts to make yer hand feel tired and itchy, not to mention the tired shoulders from swinging over yer head. That means one bolt for me. Or maybe half a hole.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Oct 10, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
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Have a fist fight if you want to see who's tougher...
... work together to make a great route...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 10, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
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Give your best. An individual knows what that is for them, as anything less will lead to doubts and regrets.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 10, 2016 - 09:58pm PT
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^^^^ Yep.
I've had it go both ways. If you're up there drilling from stances and don't hang on one of your bolts then there's a real incentive to finish the pitch because when you do it's done. No need to come back and red-point or whatever.
When it gets into hooking or other aid then it doesn't really matter, might as well spread around the fun as long as time's not a factor. Gotta come back and get it clean anyway.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2016 - 10:01pm PT
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well said Todd
Vitaliy, does that only happen when pushing limits? If not, then it sounds like you feel the obligation to go as far as possible to avoid regrets?
I suppose avoiding regrets is omnipresent, but on the sharp end the pressure to go fast or farther always seems like an external constraint causes it. Vacation ending, running out of hardware, weather moving in, etc. Otherwise, why not prolong the experience?
Perhaps that's why longer lines are such a draw?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2016 - 10:03pm PT
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Nut, tut and kris and Ding, aye that all rings true.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 10, 2016 - 11:56pm PT
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Nut, tut and kris and Ding...
That is just wrong.
lol
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 11, 2016 - 12:58am PT
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...anything less will lead to doubts and regrets
No sh#t there...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 11, 2016 - 04:39am PT
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Hey, for two cents, I'm in.
Rules for one are not rules for all.
There is the ideal and there is reality.
Your best shot is what's needed, and a sense of utter commitment, too, in setting a new route GU.
I say just give your best shot it till you fail falling and you tend to realize how tough this game can be.
You can "be" Royal Robbins in that respect, at least.
There should be no stigma attached to lack of endurance, either, because not everyone can "be" Batso, the enduro champ if we ever had one.
Honestly, though, when I was an active climber, these ethics were just developed by RR and beginning to be adopted at large in the Valley and elsewhere.
Batso's determination, though just in slings and pounding away, is to be emulated, nonetheless.
Looks like I'm out of pennies.
Not everyone is up for it. I never put myself in that position.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 11, 2016 - 06:21am PT
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Calvinball rules.....
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2016 - 07:52am PT
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Mouse, that's getting at the point.
Jaybro, what's that?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 11, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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Calvin made up his rules, then made exceptions to his rules, and sprung them on Hobbes when he got in a jam.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2016 - 09:49am PT
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Nothing wrong with self serving motivation, that's why we all tend to climb with each other; to meet our personal objectives.
oh, that Calvin! LOL
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 11, 2016 - 10:57am PT
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Vitaliy, does that only happen when pushing limits? If not, then it sounds like you feel the obligation to go as far as possible to avoid regrets?
Ok, I will reply without sarcasm and be serious.
What is climbing? It is something that is fun yet some of us are very passionate and serious about it. It is great to share individual views and opinions but usually every new route is unique in an own way and it is up to the individual what kind of choices to make. I can only speak for myself, so I notice different day can bring a different mood, a different goal, a different view on things and a different set of challenges. Climbing is a mix of a lifestyle, exercise, art and something yoga-like, a personal practice. I prefer to climb new routes ground up but would never try to convince others to follow some rule I have for myself. Climbing is so intriguing to me because it is about freedom, which is why looking at individuals whine about what others are doing is so sad. Are we all supposed to be bothered because some like to work on single pitch sport climbs during their free time from work? Or boulder? Or ice/aid or whatever? To the outside world it is all pointless and seen as unnecessary risk. And it is. We are not doing the world a f*#king favor when we go rock climbing! Above all, climbing is about avoiding getting killed, so make own decisions, wisely.
My reply to the question - I don't have a set of rules that I follow 100% of the time and I am a human whose state of mind is so varied that it all depends on a day, mood, climb, partners, weather, what I had for breakfast, excitement, location and much more. It is like trying to apply a certain rule to photography, or sex. The individual variables drive the psyche.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 11, 2016 - 12:18pm PT
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That's what she said.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 11, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
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I've had it go both ways. If you're up there drilling from stances and don't hang on one of your bolts then there's a real incentive to finish the pitch because when you do it's done. No need to come back and red-point or whatever.
When it gets into hooking or other aid then it doesn't really matter, might as well spread around the fun as long as time's not a factor. Gotta come back and get it clean anyway.
I can't say it better than Kris did, above.
John
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 11, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
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Sometimes she says that Vitaliy can do it free.
"A condumdum, it is, nailing free."--Yoda Binks from Soda Springs
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 11, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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Have fun, don't f*#k up and die, Strive for a style that leaves no regrets but don't get killed over style. Ethics are situational. Know when it's time to cheat and go home in one piece.
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