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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 10, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
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I'll be visiting the Palisades for 6-7 days in mid-August. We will be a group of four.
We don't own ice axes or crampons; I'm trying gauge the feasibility of our plans without laying out for them.
Our objectives are: Swiss Arete, Venusian Blind and/or Moon Goddess Aretes, Sun Ribbon Arete, and the Sill/Thunderbolt traverse.
Temple Crag
Firstly, I'm under the impression that both Moon Goddess Arete and Venusian Blind can be reasonably approached without crossing snow using a first pitch (chimney) variation. And I gather that Sun Ribbon Arete is feasible without crampons (ice axe "recommended" according to Supertopo) if we take care to kick some steps up on the preceding afternoon.
Also according to ST, it would appear that Sun Ribbon (at least) can probably be approached in mid-August via the moat between snow and rock.
Is this accurate?
Swiss Arete
For Swiss Arete I understand that we can avoid the L-shaped snowfield using the "sit-start" at the toe of the arete.. Is that the only viable approach without axe/crampons? It's possible we will start this climb in late-morning/early afternoon. Perhaps by that time we will be able to traverse the snowfield in approach shoes?
Am I correct that, when descending the north face of Sill to Glacier Notch ("North Couloir" per Porcella/Burns), that snow/ice can be circumvented?
Sill/Thunderbolt Traverse
This is an ambitious project for our group, so it's important to keep retreat options open.
I am under the impression that the Underhill Couloir can be approached via the snow/rock moat in late season and can thus be climbed or descended without axe/crampons.
And my understanding is that there are no east-side descent options, without ice axe or crampons, between the Underhill Couloir and the North Couloir of Sill.
On the west side, on the other hand, it seems like there are numerous options for climbing and descending without axe/crampons, all along the range: SW Chutes on Thunderbolt, NW/Starlight Chutes, SW Chute of North Palisade, SW slope of Sill.
An east-side base camp seems suitable if all goes according to plan but would necessitate a long detour (north to Agassiz Col or south to Scimitar Pass) if we were forced to retreat down the west side.
With all of that in mind, it would seem that my group must either bring axes and crampons (permitting easier retreat down the east side) or should plan on attacking this route from a west-side base camp.
Have I got that right?
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 10, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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All of this is predicated on no major, new snow falls close to your visit dates.
Temple Crag should require no crampons. An axe maybe useful in approaching the Sun Ribbon and the Moon Goddess, but not mandatory. It can be thrown down to the snow, after crossing, for retrieval on the way back to camp as well( assuming you are coming down Contact Pass)
"the moat between snow and rock". Most likely there will be no moat and access to Sun Ribbon will be straight forward and easy via rocky ledges coming in from the climbers left.
Swiss Arete. An ax and /or micro spikes (crampons not needed) makes the approach along the glacier to Glacier Notch easier, but is not mandatory either. Walking the snow/ice is easier and generally less time consuming than boulder hoping the lateral moraine. Access to the arete is easy and by afternoon any snow in the L shaped Coulior will most likely be soft and post holing back to Glacier Notch.The slandered descent takes one around Apex Peak and into the top of the L shaped Coulior and down that to Glacier Notch. It will be the easiest and fastest way down. Scrambling rock to avoid this will be time/ energy consuming.
Sill/Thunderbolt Traverse. Pretty much nailed it. The west side climbs are snow free compared to the east(glacier approaches). I'm sure it's possible to get onto Thunderbolt from the glacier without axe or crampons,but you might find them handy. You wouldn't want to tote them across the traverse in any case: getting onto Thunderbolt is the only place they would really be useful. You could drop over to the west side and approach that way, but would be a very long day for a party of 4 and might result in a bivi, planned or otherwise.
Hope this helps. Keep an eye on conditions and call locals, like Sierra Mountaineering International in Bishop for the latest info. Several folks here on ST live on the Eastside and might be willing to give you updates as well.
Good climbing and be safe. The Palisades are serious alpine mountain and demand respect and attentiveness.
TY
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 10, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
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On the East/North side you'll be crossing some steep snow regardless of route. I strongly recommend having axes. It only takes one careless step to go for a big, fast ride down into a moat or the talus.
I've been there and done that long ago in a galaxy far away. You really don't wanna do that. It can be fatal.
Remember sections of the snow can be ice or at least nearly as slick and hard. Especially early morning or when in afternoon shade.
You shouldn't need crampons. Which is another way of saying that if you're not trained in their use they can be more dangerous than not having them.
Agassiz Col is a beeech! The East side isn't bad. Steep talus and boulders. Arduous but fairly safe. Great bivvy site at the highest tarn.
The West side is steeper with much loose sand and gravel. I consider it quite dangerous. If you take the west side of the col you might want to keep a large distance between climbers and at some points have everyone but the highest get out of the rockfall line when the leader is in the nasty places.
Due to the required caution it will likely take you longer than the Scimitar Pass route.
Be ready to get benighted unless you're very fast.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
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Thanks for the excellent feedback!
TYeary: Regarding the approach to Glacier Notch. We hope to accomplish Swiss Arete on the day we hike in via the South Fork of Big Pine Creek. From that side, I believe the approach is on talus rock, right?
On that note, day 1 we plan to hike in via South Fork, set up camp under (S/SE of) Gayley/Glacier Notch, climb the Swiss Arete, and return to camp. In the morning we will descend contact pass to spend some camping at Third Lake and climbing Temple Crag. It seems like there are plenty of flat spots and a fair bit of water up there so that we should easily be able to find a suitable spot.
Regarding the traverse, it sounds like a base on the west side is definitely the right strategy. So the plan would be to use the SW Face of Sill and the SW Chute #2 of Thunderbolt (south/right of Thunderbolt Pass), with the traverse between Thunderbolt Pass and Potluck pass rounding out the loop.
That terrain is supposed to be a major talus field, and slow-going, right? Any thoughts on how long we should anticipate for crossing it in daylight? Would it be foolish to even attempt crossing in the dark?
I know the traverse can be done in both directions (Sill-Thunderbolt or vice-versa). Are there any strategic reasons to choose one or the other? Opinions on awesome campsites to launch this traverse from?
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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HighTraverse: Does your warning about getting benighted still apply as strongly with the west-side base, given the more numerous retreat options? Obviously anything can happen. We can get off-route on the descent too, someone can be injured, stuck ropes, etc. But if we are merely slow and take a responsible decision to retreat at the right time it seems like we should be optimistic, no? Especially with a loop via the west-side talus field, retreating on top will also shorten the hike back.
Which is not to say that we won't be prepared to spend a night out if it comes to that.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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I've not climbed in the Palisades from the West. I'd be at least emotionally prepared for a bivvy. Assuming it's summer and not raining all you really need is an extra sweater and a fuzzy hat. Extra water and some energy food. Everyone should have a headlamp for that long trek over rough country after dark.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
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I know the traverse can be done in both directions (Sill-Thunderbolt or vice-versa). Are there any strategic reasons to choose one or the other? Opinions on awesome campsites to launch this traverse from?
A couple of hundred feet right below the T-bolt SW chute, south of T-bolt Pass, are some small tarns with spots to camp. Not the best water in the world, but it'll do fine. People have done T-bolt in 3 hour round trips from there.
You're camping at 12,000' there, you might want to acclimate some.
T-bolt Pass itself is huge blocks of talus, as well, kind of tedious going.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
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If you aren't prepared for glacier / snow travel you might be better off going over Bishop pass and doing some of the west side routes or the traverse from that side. The campsite below T Bolt pass is one of my favorites but the hike up to the pass, and even worse back down, is torturous.
Anything on Temple should be doable in late August sans crampons and maybe even and axe, but be forewarned that Contact Pass can go from an easy snow slog to ice as soon after it goes into shade. Don't be late! Did that once in approach shoes with no axe and it wasn't fun!
When the sun goes over the hill the Palisades glacier changes from a slush slog to a tilted ice rink with big boulders for a crash pad a long way below.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 10, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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You've got some good beta with High Traverse and Gary.
I think your plan, as far as Sill and Temple are concerned, is very doable. There should be no issues getting to Glacier Notch from Elinore Lake or the high tarn up under Glacier notch. Unless you start early, and/or are very fit, the haul up to Elinore or above with packs for 6 plus days and climbing gear, and then climb Swiss Arete, will be a very full day, especially since you will have no acclimatization. Making camp, relaxing for the afternoon and not stressing yourselves more and climbing Mt.Sill early the next day is a good plan "B".
Cheers,
TY
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 10, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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You're planning on hiking in on the South Fork and then doing the Swiss Arete the same day? That's a big day. If you're planning on camping at Brainard or Finger Lake, it's not that close to Mt. Sill. Maybe you're really fit and this is doable, but it's more walking and alot more talus than you may realize. It seems like you're doing a hell of a lot of walking simply to avoid bringing crampons, which, considering you're coming all the way from Ottawa, should not be that great of a sacrifice to purchase.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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Excellent advice all around:
"Emotionally prepared" for a bivy - yes, this is a good way to put it.
Extra water, food, clothing, headlamps. I think it's Andy Kirkpatrick that said the best place for spare batteries is in a spare headlamp? So we'll have that covered.
Acclimation
I'm aware that altitude sickness can strike as low as 10-11k' although this is atypical. I've also seen a trip report of an attempt on this traverse almost directly from sea level (clear signs of altitude sickness through which the party, irresponsibly in my opinion, continued).
We will attempt the traverse as one of our last objectives on this visit, so we should be well acclimated by then with many nights at 10-12k' and multiple days summiting (hopefully) at 13-14k'.
On day 0 we will sleep at 7700' (Big Pine Creek Campground).
On day 1 we will sleep somewhere at or above Elinore Lake (11-12k').
It's wise to identify altitude as a risk factor - I think the above plan is responsible but acknowledge that we will definitely experience some (hopefully moderate) effects of altitude and must react accordingly.
TGT: Presumably contact pass should be mostly bare in August? In our case we will observe it on our approach from South Fork of Big Pine, so we will at least know what to expect.
Fat Dad: We're not approaching via South Fork to avoid the crampons. In fact I missed getting a permit for North Fork. On the other hand, South Fork is the recommended approach (per Porcella/Burns) for the Swiss Arete anyway.
I don't mind buying an axe and crampons, but I don't want to lay out $200+ each for (and then carry) gear we don't need. I also don't want to foolishly leave something behind that will compromise the whole trip.
We would not camp at Brainerd or Finger for Mt Sill. Most likely the tarn under Glacier or Elinore Lake.
I agree that starting early is a pre-req for even considering Mt Sill on the first day - this trip report puts the approach at 7h, which is about my own estimate, too (I have a lot of experience planning backpacking trips; I have some good metrics for distance/altitude-based trail-time estimation). It's definitely questionable whether the Swiss Arete, starting at 2PM, is a sound idea. Our party is neither the slowest nor fastest, but I would be surprised if we exceeded the ST-estimate of 2-3h for the ascent. PM thundershowers, fatigue, acclimation, or the lure of an alpine lake are all good reasons we might not choose to do it that day.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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Owing to your group size, and depending on your experience, or speed, you may end up having to bivy on the Sill/T-bolt traverse.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 08:39am PT
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Based on this feedback and some map reading, my current thought for the traverse would be:
Day 0 Leave one car at Bishop Pass Trail TH, drive other car to Big Pine Campground, sleep
Day 1 Hike South Fork to Elinore Lake drainage (camp at lake or high tarn)
Day 2 Descend Contact Pass to establish camp at Third Lake
Days 3-4 Temple Crag days
Day 5 cross Winchell Col and set up camp at the tarn NW of Thunderbolt Pass.
Day 6 Climb SW Chute #1 (left/west of Thunderbolt Pass), do the traverse, descend the SW Face of Sill, return to camp via Potluck Pass and Thunderbolt Pass
Day 7 Hike out via Bishop Pass Trail
We would do Sill on day 1 or 2, Venusian Blind or Moon Goddess the next day, and Sun Ribbon (probably only two of us) on day 3 or 4.
I really appreciate all of the feedback I've received so far. From what I've heard, I would consider this an ambitious but possible plan, with reasonable retreat options. And I've definitely heard the message that we need to cross our i's, dot our t's, and treat the mountains with respect.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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10b4me: Acknowledging that the unexpected might happen, yes, we could end up bivying on the ridge. But we would prefer to bail early if we are not making good time. Our plan wouldn't commit us to finishing the route.
Do you see a reason why (barring injury, stuck rope, or getting lost on the descent) a party willing to retreat due to speed would get stuck on top?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 11, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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Contact pass will be bare on the S side but may be snow filled on the N side. I was talking about the normal descent from Temple that goes down the N side of Contact pass.
Elinore lake should be renamed "the lake you cannot get to" It's a long tough slog up there with packs. From Willow lake up it's about the longest "it's only a mile or so on the topo" you'll ever do.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 09:09am PT
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Do you see a reason why (barring injury, stuck rope, or getting lost on the descent) a party willing to retreat due to speed would get stuck on top?
No. Just beware of your descent routes on the west side. For example, descending the west side of the U-notch is easy. The descent possibilities on the west side of North Pal are problematic. After the U-notch, the next possible descent is the southwest chute #2, on T-bolt.
Try picking up a copy of , the High Sierra, Peaks, Passes, Trails, by RJSecor.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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10b4me: Thanks. I do have Secor, in addition to Porcella/Burns (also ST High Sierra, although it's not relevant to the traverse). I'm also working off of the Tom Harrison map.
Working from north to south, I have the following escape options:
SW Chutes on Thunderbolt (we will climb #1)
NW/Starlight Chutes
SW Chute of North Palisade (aka West side of U-Notch)
SW face of Sill (our planned descent)
The NW/Starlight Chutes are not on your list; should I not consider them?
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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TGT: Thanks - those names would definitely be more descriptive!
Elinore Lake - in an ideal world we will not hit the lake itself; the route directly to the high tarn follows a creek north of the Elinore. I'm not sure if you were referring to the last bit up to the lake itself, or the general nature of travel in that area. I hear the message about very rough cross-country travel in this section, implying slower than normal travel.
Contact Pass - I was talking about the north side, too. I'm surprised that it could be snow-filled. ST seems to suggest that there might be snow but that it can be reasonably avoided. Sounds like we will be OK in the afternoon but that descending in the dark could be treacherous.
Thanks again.
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Murf
climber
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Jun 11, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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No way I'd go up there without an axe and walking crampons.
I also think the terrain there is more complicated than it might appear on the map so to speak.
In your shoes I'd hike up the NF ( "You mean this isn't the SF sir?" ), camp at 3rd lake and tick everything off Temple you want. Pick a day and do Sill, be prepared for a tougher approach after Sam Mack than you expected. Leave plenty of time for the descent and if you have time, hit Polonium on the descent.
Go back to town, drink beer.
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erikwright
Trad climber
Ottawa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2015 - 10:07am PT
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Murf: You would bring axe and walking crampons for Temple? Swiss Arete? The traverse?
By walking crampons, do you mean something less than full crampons (i.e. microspikes)?
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